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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 9:24 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
But the point is that players are saying tuck is better for competitive decks. And the people playing those decks aren't using it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 9:27 am 
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Willbender wrote:
Necrachilles wrote:
If a hyper competitive EDH format disabled tucking, is it really something that should be disabled casually?
I think you're misunderstanding why the point was brought up.

The RC stated that they did this change for the casual play aspects. A vast number of the people against the change said that it ruins the competitive aspect of the game. Pointing out that the "official" competitive EDH ruleset had already made this change was presented as a counterpoint to the "ruins the competitive" claim, not to explain why the RC changed it for casual Commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 9:48 am 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Willbender wrote:
Necrachilles wrote:
If a hyper competitive EDH format disabled tucking, is it really something that should be disabled casually?
I think you're misunderstanding why the point was brought up.

The RC stated that they did this change for the casual play aspects. A vast number of the people against the change said that it ruins the competitive aspect of the game. Pointing out that the "official" competitive EDH ruleset had already made this change was presented as a counterpoint to the "ruins the competitive" claim, not to explain why the RC changed it for casual Commander.

Spectrar Ghost wrote:
But the point is that players are saying tuck is better for competitive decks. And the people playing those decks aren't using it.

I understand why the rule change and with the goal of the change in mind, I agree with it. EDH was designed as a casual format, I get that.

I think you're missing the point (assuming you quoted him in response to my last post).

Going to try and simplify:
EDH is a casual multiplayer format, "people are saying tuck is better for competitive [EDH] decks"
French EDH is a competitive 1v1 format, tuck is disabled.
EDH and French EDH are two different playstyles (1v1 is vastly different from multiplayer). What's competitive in one isn't necessarily competitive in the other.

Removing tuck from 1v1 makes it more competitive.
Removing tuck from multiplayer doesn't automatically make it more competitive because it did for 1v1.
Removing tuck from multiplayer does however make it more casual and/or friendly (goal or at least portion of the goal with the change).

All I'm getting at is, using the fact that competitive EDH disabled tuck means that casual EDH will still be competitive is a bad comparison.

It's like if I said (and I'm not serious here) removing tuck would make casual EDH too competitive because competitive EDH already removed tuck.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 10:10 am 
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Joined: 2015-Mar-24 8:21 pm
Age: Drake
Final thoughts, I understand the comparison and the reasoning. People are worried about it being less competitive but French EDH does it, etc, etc. I however agree with whomever, there will still be plenty of competitive aspects to casual EDH without tucking. I just think the French EDH comparison/argument is weak.

We're really comparing apples and oranges here, if you can't see that then I can't help you. Sorry.

I'm just going to let it go. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-05 9:42 am 

Joined: 2015-Mar-31 11:28 am
Age: Wyvern
It is up to players to decide whether they want to follow this new rule. Our community has been following most of the Committee's rules, but the tuck rule has showed that the Committee is out of touch with many players. We have chosen to ignore the latest rule and play tuck the way it is supposed to be played.

This rule will most likely lead to banning several commanders - Derevi, Mailstrom Wanderer, Prosh, Narset, etc. By ignoring the rule, there will be no need to observe these bans since tuck will still be available in our community. This means that we might be ignoring the Committee's further decisions. The fail reasoning behind the latest tuck changes means that the Committee is no longer authority for us.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-05 11:57 am 
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Angelfirelor wrote:
It is up to players to decide whether they want to follow this new rule. Our community has been following most of the Committee's rules, but the tuck rule has showed that the Committee is out of touch with many players. We have chosen to ignore the latest rule and play tuck the way it is supposed to be played.

This rule will most likely lead to banning several commanders - Derevi, Mailstrom Wanderer, Prosh, Narset, etc. By ignoring the rule, there will be no need to observe these bans since tuck will still be available in our community. This means that we might be ignoring the Committee's further decisions. The fail reasoning behind the latest tuck changes means that the Committee is no longer authority for us.

I highly doubt any of the generals you just listed will be any more broken/oppressive in a tuck-less meta than they are in yours. Especially since any player who wrecks the meta with those generals probably runs a backup plan and tons of draw/tutors/protection to make the tucking far less effective.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-05 1:03 pm 
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Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Angelfirelor wrote:
It is up to players to decide whether they want to follow this new rule. Our community has been following most of the Committee's rules, but the tuck rule has showed that the Committee is out of touch with many players. We have chosen to ignore the latest rule and play tuck the way it is supposed to be played.

This rule will most likely lead to banning several commanders - Derevi, Mailstrom Wanderer, Prosh, Narset, etc. By ignoring the rule, there will be no need to observe these bans since tuck will still be available in our community. This means that we might be ignoring the Committee's further decisions. The fail reasoning behind the latest tuck changes means that the Committee is no longer authority for us.


I think you greatly overestimate the amount of people against this rule change, and by extension vastly underestimate the people who are for it.

More people will post here and in other forums against it than are for it, specifically because those who don't like it will be more vocal.

I personally think this change is healthier for the format. It puts the Commander zone change rule in a clearer light, and makes it more consistent.

Does it leave some commanders with less answers? Not as much as you'd think.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-05 1:18 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jul-15 6:33 pm
Age: Drake
I was originally unhappy about this change. After seeing the response here, I can only say: Keep up the good work, RC. If people like me were in charge of things, EDH would be the Magic equivalent of Ulgrotha.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-05 1:18 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Magnetic North wrote:
I was originally unhappy about this change. After seeing the response here, I can only say: Keep up the good work, RC. If people like me were in charge of things, EDH would be the Magic equivalent of Ulgrotha.

Ulgrotha is amazing.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-05 11:09 pm 
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Doing something some people disagree with or don't like is not the same as being out of touch with them. We understood that a certain segment wasn't going to like it and knew what their concerns might be.

There are some people with whom we're out of touch: the ranting, hyperbolic, apocalypto-crats who believe that this (or any other) change will burnt everything to pieces. I'll concede that we don't plug into them at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-06 1:54 am 

Joined: 2015-Mar-31 11:28 am
Age: Wyvern
tgambitg wrote:
I think you greatly overestimate the amount of people against this rule change, and by extension vastly underestimate the people who are for it.

More people will post here and in other forums against it than are for it, specifically because those who don't like it will be more vocal.

I personally think this change is healthier for the format. It puts the Commander zone change rule in a clearer light, and makes it more consistent.

Does it leave some commanders with less answers? Not as much as you'd think.


Tbh, I have seen more ppl against the change than in favor of it - both in my meta and on forums. Many people also haven't heard about it, since not everyone follows the latest commander news.

I do not think that tuck rules are hard to grasp - the card does exactly what it says. Hinder puts your commander on top or bottom of your library. Sounds clear to me. "People should not be forced to play blue and white to have tuck" is also a pretty weak argument. I'm sorry, I thought there was this thing called the color pie. The same can be said about ramp in green, burn in red and sacrifice/abundance of removal in black.

I have also never seen people run tutors specifically to deal with tuck. Tutors are meant for consistency or finding combo pieces/answers. Fetching your commander after it has been tucked away is only a bonus.

In my meta, probably also in many others, tuck is used by control decks to keep nasty commanders in check. Yes, you can make some newbie's day worse by tucking away his commander, but that's on you and not the card. Players who are aware of the power of various commanders use tuck on those which actually matter.

Yes, you can play in accordance with the change and try stopping Maelstrom Wanderer turn after turn after turn. Have fun with games like these. I much rather spell crumple that Narset and move on with the game. Sure, you can also tell those Derevi, MW and Narset players to walk away from the table, but I believe that this causes more "feel-bads" than any tuck spell out there.

P.S. My meta is semi-casual, but many commanders, even if built more or less casually, still turn games into archenemy mode, if not tucked away quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-06 2:56 am 
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Angelfirelor wrote:
Tbh, I have seen more ppl against the change than in favor of it - both in my meta and on forums. Many people also haven't heard about it, since not everyone follows the latest commander news.

Do you realize that the people who post online about Magic are in the minority of magic players? Wizards has stats for this and continually states it.

As such, even if most people who post online are against it, doesn't mean that the majority of Commadner players are against it.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-06 3:21 am 

Joined: 2015-Mar-31 11:28 am
Age: Wyvern
Carthain wrote:
Do you realize that the people who post online about Magic are in the minority of magic players? Wizards has stats for this and continually states it.

As such, even if most people who post online are against it, doesn't mean that the majority of Commadner players are against it.


Wizards is not the same as the Rules Committee. Also, I have yet to see any stats about such a casual format as Commander. In my experience (most Commander players I have met) are against the change.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-06 3:30 am 
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Angelfirelor wrote:
I much rather spell crumple that Narset and move on with the game.


And in the vast majority of games in which you don't have Spell Crumple or Hinder? Then what?
If a commander is such a problem that it had to be tucked, it's a big enough problem that people likely just shouldn't be playing it. All this change does in that regard is force people to face the ugly truth about certain commanders. A truth that's always existed, by the way.... Tuck was never a good answer for degenerate commanders, and now that the bad answer is gone, maybe people will finally have to face the hard truth that some commanders just don't have a place in this format.

Tuck was good at answering the not-degenerate but still very powerful commanders that give slow long term advantage over the course of an entire game. (Zegana, Karador, Erebos)
It was not good at answering the degenerate commanders that needed near immediate answers. (Ghave, Prossh, Narset, sometimes Derevi) There simply wasn't enough good tuck to make it a reliable answer to such things.

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Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Apr-06 4:16 am 
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Angelfirelor wrote:
Wizards is not the same as the Rules Committee. Also, I have yet to see any stats about such a casual format as Commander. In my experience (most Commander players I have met) are against the change.

Sooo...

You said that WotC =/= RC. Fair. But There is a RC member who works for WotC, and they do talk back and forth about things.

Then, you say you have yet to see any stats about casual formats, such as Commander. Not even WotC gives out the stats that they have, they just let us know the results that they can reach based on them. And according to them, the casual players far outnumber those who go online and are willing to voice their concerns about something. Why would you think Commander is different in a manner that the majority is people who are willing to post online?

Lastly, you simply give anecdotal evidence. I'm not sure how that's supposed to apply to Commander players as a whole, but you seem to think that your experiences are what the majority of players experiences are.


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