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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 2:42 pm 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Because there is a fun fact: there is no general that is so powerful that other competitive decks MUST resort to tucking it to even have a chance.

Hear, hear! I'm still not understanding why this is at all a problem for competitive players, despite the colourful chess analogies...


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 2:52 pm 
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[Rule 1.]


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 3:38 pm 
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Stardust wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Because there is a fun fact: there is no general that is so powerful that other competitive decks MUST resort to tucking it to even have a chance.
Hear, hear! I'm still not understanding why this is at all a problem for competitive players, despite the colourful chess analogies...
The really funny thing is that the actual competitive players using the 1v1 rules banned tucking long ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 3:47 pm 

Joined: 2015-Mar-24 3:32 pm
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Willbender wrote:
Stardust wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Because there is a fun fact: there is no general that is so powerful that other competitive decks MUST resort to tucking it to even have a chance.
Hear, hear! I'm still not understanding why this is at all a problem for competitive players, despite the colourful chess analogies...
The really funny thing is that the actual competitive players using the 1v1 rules banned tucking long ago.
exactly.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-25 4:23 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Te5486a wrote:
Please reply to this thread (particularly if you support my thoughts) with your opinion.


Bahahahahaha :roll:

Trying really hard not to flame here, but seriously "please respond, especially if you agree with me." Are you freaking kidding? You are pretty clearly indicating your desire to ignore as many people that disagree as possible.

Plus calling for the disbandment of the rules committee unless they reverse their decision, utterly absurd. The rule has been in force for a few days and somehow you have collected enough information to make a call on how the change is going to ruin the format. I haven't even played a game since the rule was announced and yet you know that this is bad for the format?

If you are so confident that EDH is such a worse format because if this change I implore you to find some other game to play, because I am pretty sure you wont be missed.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 6:13 am 
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Willbender wrote:
Stardust wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Because there is a fun fact: there is no general that is so powerful that other competitive decks MUST resort to tucking it to even have a chance.
Hear, hear! I'm still not understanding why this is at all a problem for competitive players, despite the colourful chess analogies...
The really funny thing is that the actual competitive players using the 1v1 rules banned tucking long ago.


implying that EDH and french are in anyway similar at all. which they most certainly are not.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 6:19 am 
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Location: New Hampshire
Gath Immortal wrote:
implying that EDH and french are in anyway similar at all. which they most certainly are not.

No, but that's not the point of his comment. I think you can agree that French is far more cutthroat. The fact that the more cutthroat environment has already done away with tucking is at odds with the idea that doing away with tuck is done in order to hose competitive players and/or to cater to casual players.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 6:30 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
implying that EDH and french are in anyway similar at all. which they most certainly are not.

No, but that's not the point of his comment. I think you can agree that French is far more cutthroat. The fact that the more cutthroat environment has already done away with tucking is at odds with the idea that doing away with tuck is done in order to hose competitive players and/or to cater to casual players.


I do agree that removing tuck is in fact a serious detriment to casual play, not competitive. Which is why this decision confuses the everloving crap out of me.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 6:35 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
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Why is is a detriment to casual play? I don't think I've ever had cause to use a tuck in my (rather casual) meta.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 6:47 am 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Why is is a detriment to casual play? I don't think I've ever had cause to use a tuck in my (rather casual) meta.


I suppose it depends on what kind of casual meta you're playing in. My meta is oversaturated with lots of decks that are very well tuned and have lots of powerful cards in them, a deck like that running solely off of it's general like say Animar or Kaalia, is inordinately difficult to stop because even if you pop animar back into the command zone, replaying it is cheap and easy, kaalia makes your big dudes free, and animar himself makes all your stuff cheaper, making it really easy to constantly rebuild your board as long as you have access to them.

Tuck takes a deck like this that is extremely resource rich and brings them back down to your level, giving you a window to overtake them and eventually win, assuming you're both playing grindy, comboless decks that can't table-kill.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 7:20 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
Why is is a detriment to casual play? I don't think I've ever had cause to use a tuck in my (rather casual) meta.
I suppose it depends on what kind of casual meta you're playing in. My meta is oversaturated with lots of decks that are very well tuned and have lots of powerful cards in them,
In which case, is it truly a casual meta anymore, or has it become a competitive or casual-competitive meta like FNMs often are?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 7:50 am 
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Gath Immortal wrote:
a deck like that running solely off of it's general like say Animar or Kaalia, is inordinately difficult to stop because even if you pop animar back into the command zone, replaying it is cheap and easy, kaalia makes your big dudes free, and animar himself makes all your stuff cheaper, making it really easy to constantly rebuild your board as long as you have access to them.


Yes, losing tuck makes a deck with a dumb general harder to stop. So what happens? In a good playgroup, the player running the unstoppable deck sees it's time to switch to a different deck. What happens if you "play more answers" (like tuck) and keep Kaalia or Animar from winning? The player thinks his deck is strong, but somewhat fair. If the social contract works for your group, your meta will change into something without stupid generals.

That's a big if though. I read a lot of claims that everybody and their mothers will switch to dumb generals. If that's because the social contract fails, that's a sad thing.

Maybe some people will switch to generals that are better in tuckless meta's, but why wouldn't those players be playing those generals already? Apparently those kind of players are attracted to "the strongest general", and it's exactly those kind of generals that get people to play tuck in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 8:40 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
implying that EDH and french are in anyway similar at all. which they most certainly are not.

No, but that's not the point of his comment. I think you can agree that French is far more cutthroat. The fact that the more cutthroat environment has already done away with tucking is at odds with the idea that doing away with tuck is done in order to hose competitive players and/or to cater to casual players.

I think the point is, your comparing apples to oranges.

Competitive 1v1 =/= Casual(ish) Multiplayer

If anything, I'd think that the comparison would be better argument for the opposite.

If a hyper competitive EDH format disabled tucking, is it really something that should be disabled casually? Should EDH follow suit and enforce the French EDH ban list? I mean surely if such a highly competitive format bans Sol Ring, Serra Ascendant, etc, etc...

Unfortunately, there are just too many variables. Combinations of player skill, play style and General all mix to make a ridiculous amount of combinations, some of which tucking is a good thing. Then there are other combinations, maybe the majority, where tucking is a bad thing.

If nothing else, I think removal of tucking just creates a much more consistent competitive environment, removing a variable ("what if I lose my General?") and giving more free reign to designing a deck around (and potentially abusing) a select General.

The thing is, tucking/no tucking really is apples and oranges. Some people like one or the other, some like both and some dislike both. Strong arguments can be made for each one (though, some people say cucumber tastes better pickled).

This whole thing is a dog chasing it's tail.


Note: Rereading Sid's post, I might have been confused and misunderstood but went ahead with what I wrote because there's still some relevant points.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 9:04 am 
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Necrachilles wrote:
If a hyper competitive EDH format disabled tucking, is it really something that should be disabled casually?
I think you're misunderstanding why the point was brought up.

The RC stated that they did this change for the casual play aspects. A vast number of the people against the change said that it ruins the competitive aspect of the game. Pointing out that the "official" competitive EDH ruleset had already made this change was presented as a counterpoint to the "ruins the competitive" claim, not to explain why the RC changed it for casual Commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules Committee Should Disband
AgePosted: 2015-Mar-27 9:20 am 
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Joined: 2015-Mar-24 8:21 pm
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Willbender wrote:
Necrachilles wrote:
If a hyper competitive EDH format disabled tucking, is it really something that should be disabled casually?
I think you're misunderstanding why the point was brought up.

The RC stated that they did this change for the casual play aspects. A vast number of the people against the change said that it ruins the competitive aspect of the game. Pointing out that the "official" competitive EDH ruleset had already made this change was presented as a counterpoint to the "ruins the competitive" claim, not to explain why the RC changed it for casual Commander.

I understand that and what meant, somewhere in all my ramblings, is that just because "not tucking" is in a competitive format, doesn't mean "not tucking" is competitive. The two formats, for all their similarities, are too different to effectively compare in that way.


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