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Should Gifts Ungiven be banned?
Yes 22%  22%  [ 17 ]
No 78%  78%  [ 60 ]
Total votes : 77
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 Post subject: Gifts Ungiven: to ban or no
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 12:46 am 
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This thread is for the discussion of Gifts Ungiven's watch list status. What do you all think, should this card be banned?


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 1:42 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-12 5:15 pm
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gifts ungiven is only as good as the player playing it and the opponent being played by it, if you build around it it can be powerful... otherwise it is just another spell.*

the bolded portion can be said about nearly every staple found in edh.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 3:03 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-08 1:02 pm
Age: Drake
The problem our playgroup has with gifts, is the same problem they have with any other tutor or what not, it slows down game play when searching your library. As far as needing banning, there are many other cards to look at before this one.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 3:27 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
No, it shouldn't be banned.

Is this "Ban this card" week at EDH central? :wink:

I've had a look and can't find an official Watch-list, only the latest additions. Are there any other cards than Gifts Ungiven, Sundering Titan & Time Stretch? I'd presume that Fastbond is now on the list due to the recent spotlight.

The "guidlines" or general principals for banning cards in EDH are:
    Its power level in multiplayer EDH is signficantly higher than both what's expected for its mana cost AND it's power level in other formats (due to different rules or game sizes). [Examples include Panoptic Mirror and Biorythm]

    it's dollar cost is prohibitive for most players and the card usually detracts from the playing experience of everyone in the game [The Power 8].

    it belongs to a class of cards which can't be consistantly interpreted by all players [Silver bordered cards, dexterity cards]


I think we can forget #3 for Fastbond, Gifts Ungiven, Sundering Titan & Time Stretch.

We can also forget #2. In a format that allows Mana Drain & Alpha duals, players can generally afford these 4 cards.

So that leaves us with the question whether the power level of these cards is "signficantly higher than both what's expected for its mana cost AND it's power level in other formats."


Time Stretch: Does going from unplayable to playable consititute "signficantly higher"? Yes, the effect is significant but I think a lot of people would fall on the side of "if you're paying 10 mana, you should expect an effect that will either win you the game or put you in a hugely dominant position." We have banned playable "extra turn" cards already. At what mana cost do they become permissable?


Sundering Titan: Yes, he is powerful, especially with multiple CIP/LP triggers. Yes, he could/can be cheated into play but he is also a check against colour hungry decks. Is he more powerful than Ruination? Arguably not, but people are less inclined to run Ruination or Price of Progress because it's symetrical, not targeted and it forces you to play R. Personally I'd be inclined to allow playgroup pressure solve any ST abuse rather than bannings however annoying he may appear. I won't cry if he makes the jump though.


Fastbond: There's a whole other thread on this but Ban Ki-Moon's point that it's intrinsically inferior to Sol Ring in anything other than an exceptional opening hand is pertinant. See here for more: http://edh.truespace.ca/EDH_Forum/viewtopic.php?t=1634&sid=985d973d31578edd046dec6e41f186c3


That leaves the object of this thread, Gifts Ungiven: I'd put it that the power level of Gifts Ungiven is not in any way "signficantly higher than both what's expected for its mana cost AND it's power level in other formats." It was printed as a splashable, instant, blue 4 mana tutor. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

The arguament that EDH being a singleton format is null as Gifts can only search cards with differing names.

The arguament that it's a 100 card format and thuse have the capability to tutor from a wider palette is also null because you are not restricted in any format where this is legal to playing only 60 cards (though this could be argued! :wink: )

The arguament that you are playing with all but say 20 of the most broken cards in the game generally holds true for Legacy too and with the exception of Moxen/Salvagers, there's hardly a Gifts pile out there that isn't Legacy legal.

Playing in EDH, being a Multiplayer format, does not bring advantages, only more opportunities to be disrupted. The only EDH objection that you could possibly argue according to the current considerations/guidelines for banning is that the opponent's decks being larger reduces the potential for having the answer in hand when Gifts is played, though deck size cannot be in itself a reason for banning.

I'm for the status quo (and finding out what else is on the watch-list.)

_________________
Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 6:37 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
Gifts is the most broken tutor in EDH right now, and anyone who doesn't think so is probably not using it properly.
If it gets the axe I will be pretty angry, but I guess I'd understand why.

They added Tinker to the list, if they start systematically banning all the good tutors my group will draw the line.
What fun is an almost totally vintage format if you can't tutor and do broken things?

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 6:44 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
yawg07 wrote:
Gifts is the most broken tutor in EDH right now, and anyone who doesn't think so is probably not using it properly.
If it gets the axe I will be pretty angry, but I guess I'd understand why.

They added Tinker to the list, if they start systematically banning all the good tutors my group will draw the line.
What fun is an almost totally vintage format if you can't tutor and do broken things?


I had an interesting chat over lunch about it after my post this morning. Where would you put it on a power level basis against the current EDH banned list and everyone scored it quite high. Then I put to them where it would be scored in terms of just doing stupid broken things against the current EDH ban list and it sat right at the bottom.

Edit: I forgot to disagree with you on Tinker. Tinker breaks one of the fundamental rules of magic and allows you to "pay" less for a card that you should with almost no set-up (an artifact in play) not even having the card in hand as a normal tutor would give you. A single copy of Tinker with an artifact is at the same time a DSC, ST, Eye, Magister, Slaver, etc etc all in your hand for just 2U.

_________________
Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 7:02 am 
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Gifts sets up all those stupid broken things.
And in some decks the fact that it puts stuff in the yard is ALSO a good thing.
If your deck is set up to abuse Gifts it IS literally 4 Demonic Tutors at instant speed for 3U.

Sharuum for example, the game is usually over when I cast Gifts.
There is no good place to put anything, I'll get it all.

Gifts also sets up intricate combos so much easier because it gets multiple pieces of them.
That is one reason it SHOULDN'T be banned.
Because if you want to play some insane 6-card combo, something only possible in EDH, Gifts is a VERY helpful tool.


Also, about Tinker, why is "paying less" so detrimental to Magic's fundamentals?
Ban a problem card (Sundering Titan) not Tinker. But I digress, because I DO fully understand WHY it is banned, I just don't approve.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 7:22 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
yawg07 wrote:
Gifts sets up all those stupid broken things.
And in some decks the fact that it puts stuff in the yard is ALSO a good thing.
If your deck is set up to abuse Gifts it IS literally 4 Demonic Tutors at instant speed for 3U.

Sharuum for example, the game is usually over when I cast Gifts.
There is no good place to put anything, I'll get it all.

Gifts also sets up intricate combos so much easier because it gets multiple pieces of them.
That is one reason it SHOULDN'T be banned.
Because if you want to play some insane 6-card combo, something only possible in EDH, Gifts is a VERY helpful tool.


:D You're making a very convincing case FOR banning Gifts with your Sharuum example. It SHOULD be banned because it's an engine piece for broken stuff.

But you're also saying it SHOULDN'T be banned because someone may use it for a crazy 5 card combo.

Personally I love Gifts and think it has it's place in EDH. As you said earlier, if we start banning tutors, where do we stop? I'm fairly sure there's no real groundswell for bannig Gifts and until it's being cast in every single deck for overly abusive stuff then it should be left alone.

yawg07 wrote:
Also, about Tinker, why is "paying less" so detrimental to Magic's fundamentals?
Ban a problem card (Sundering Titan) not Tinker. But I digress, because I DO fully understand WHY it is banned, I just don't approve.


The fundamentals I was referring to is the basics of magic and the basis around which most cards are considered strong or weak. Draw one card, play one land every turn etc. "Put a card from your library directly onto play" is pretty high on the power scale in comparison.

The problem with banning ST is the "VS banning" effect. Anyone who played VS will know that the game organisers decided to leave in important engine parts every time they had a rounds of bannings. Each time the kill card was banned. The hydra that is combo still had its engine so it just needed to grow a new head which it did time after time after time before the powers that be cottoned on and banned what mattered. If you banned ST without banning Tinker, you'd still have Tinker -> DST or Tinker -> Slaver or Tinker -> whatever. I'm much happier with Tinker banned than I ever would be with Gifts.

So when is Banning Theme Week over?

_________________
Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 7:37 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
lol I contradict I suppose, but it is true, there is no stronger card in Sharuum than Gifts Ungiven.
Mainly because Sharuum is the wildcard, she WANTS artifacts in the yard.
Almost anything I Gifts for is ridiculous. Random pile I use ... Master Transmuter, Duplicant, Magister Sphinx, Mindslaver.
There is no good place to put anything, the only thing you CAN'T DO is put Magister Sphinx in the yard.
If you do, Sharuum reanimates it, you go to 10, and I swing for 10 in the air next turn.
Also, now that Crucible is unbanned, throwing Crucible, Tolarian Academy, Strip Mine, Magister Sphinx is a sweet pile, too.
You don't have to worry about them yarding Crucible, Sharuum will pick up and slap it into play.

Hey I came to terms with Tinker, but only for one reason.
If Tinker is Banned, Then Rofellos is Unbanned, and my desires for retarded-ass decks is satiated.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 7:42 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
yawg07 wrote:
Hey I came to terms with Tinker, but only for one reason. If Tinker is Banned, Then Rofellos is Unbanned, and my desires for retarded-ass decks is satiated.


Like you need a second one? :wink: :

yawg07 wrote:
lol I contradict I suppose, but it is true, there is no stronger card in Sharuum than Gifts Ungiven.
Mainly because Sharuum is the wildcard, she WANTS artifacts in the yard.
Almost anything I Gifts for is ridiculous. Random pile I use ... Master Transmuter, Duplicant, Magister Sphinx, Mindslaver.
There is no good place to put anything, the only thing you CAN'T DO is put Magister Sphinx in the yard.
If you do, Sharuum reanimates it, you go to 10, and I swing for 10 in the air next turn.
Also, now that Crucible is unbanned, throwing Crucible, Tolarian Academy, Strip Mine, Magister Sphinx is a sweet pile, too.
You don't have to worry about them yarding Crucible, Sharuum will pick up and slap it into play.

_________________
Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 8:17 am 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-18 6:54 pm
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zimagic wrote:
No, it shouldn't be banned.

Is this "Ban this card" week at EDH central? :wink:


Just to be clear, I started this thread because I was curious what other people thought. Personally, I don't think Gifts should be banned for largely the reasons already stated by others.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 8:45 am 
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Joined: 2008-Oct-20 10:43 am
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Location: Penn State University
The stupid card takes way too long (real time) to resolve. I've seen players take forever figuring out what to grab, then the opponent take forever figuring out how to split it so he doesn't go off.
Yes, the good players don't take long, but since it's known to be a "good card", many people play it, even if their deck would've just been better off with Tidings / Mind's Eye.

The slowness reminds me of Top. Of course "taking too long" is not a reason to ban, but I voted Yes anyway as a protest vote.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 9:44 am 
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Right, if you know your deck well enough, you should know what to grab no matter what the situation requires.
Also have a few "common piles" ready which work in almost every occasion.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 11:50 am 
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Location: Portland, OR
Gifts is restricted in Vintage because it can tutor up multiple other restricted cards. The concept of fetching out singleton copies of cards translates almost perfectly to EDH. Gifts Ungiven is more powerful in this format than it is in any other except for Vintage.

With regard to yawg07's claim that it's essentially 4 Demonic Tutors, it's more like 2. If you're going to be able to use more than 2 of the cards, then you're restricted as to what you can get (artifacts for Sharuum, for example) Sample pile:
Eternal Witness
Regrowth
Fastbond
Crucible of Worlds

Another sample pile:
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Pestermite
Body Double
Karmic Guide

That's not to say it should be banned though. Tutoring for two specific combo pieces with Gifts usually requires a lot of extra spells and a lot of extra mana, which means more chance to disrupt whatever's been fetched. With the Crucible sample above, you need 9 mana after Gifts resolves to get your combo on the table. With the Kiki-Jiki pile, you need 10. Even with yawg's Sharuum piles, getting everything out requires (in most cases) playing Sharuum.

Gifts is a great tutor, but I think you need to jump through enough hoops with it that's it's not worth banning.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 1:05 pm 
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You can't count Gifts CC into the total. It is an Instant, play it at the end of whoever turn is before your own.
Hey, as far as Sharuum goes, in an artifact deck, if you have less than 6 mana by turns 4/5 you are doing something wrong. lol

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