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 Post subject: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 10:49 am 

Joined: 2012-Sep-21 6:29 am
Age: Wyvern
Lo,

I myself rarely play 1v1 competitively. Usually it occurs randomly.

There are some banlists for 1v1 out there but I find this site to be THE reference for rules and a basic banlist. I'm wondering why there is no 1v1 banlist here as well?

Just wondering really because it would definitely be an improvement, unless you never play 1v1 edh as RC.

Your thoughts?

Cheers,
Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 10:51 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
They only promote EDH as a multi-player game. The Duel Commander ban list is most widely accepted 1v1 list, and is updated by people who play that format. I think the RC really knows where their wheelhouse is, and it's not 1v1.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 11:15 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
http://duelcommander.com/banlist/

There ya go.

Now all you have to do is build decks that conform to both lists at once, or have multiple decks, one for multiplayer and one for 1v1.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 11:22 am 

Joined: 2014-Feb-02 10:39 pm
Age: Hatchling
If you're looking for a Super competitive 1v1 Commander Format, check the French banlist. It's widely recognized as the 1v1 commander rules for competitive commander tournaments. You only have 30 life and has many bans that are not banned in current commander (sol ring, mana crypt, Serra Accendant, etc.) Also cards like grislebrand are not banned due to the speed of the format. Check mtgtop8.com for tier 1 decklists.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 7:42 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
jeff.monnee wrote:
There are some banlists for 1v1 out there but I find this site to be THE reference for rules and a basic banlist. I'm wondering why there is no 1v1 banlist here as well?

Just wondering really because it would definitely be an improvement, unless you never play 1v1 edh as RC.


With the Commander format, I could see the existence of three different ban lists. The first ban list would be for the casual multiplayer format, what we currently have from the RC. The second would be the competitive 1v1 format that we get from the French rules. The third list would be for a competitive multiplayer format.

The needs of each of these formats are different enough that I can understand that not one (unpaid) group wants to maintain all three lists and for the RC, they feel it dilutes the "brand" of the format that they are trying to promote.

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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 7:52 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
cheethorne wrote:
The needs of each of these formats are different enough that I can understand that not one (unpaid) group wants to maintain all three lists and for the RC, they feel it dilutes the "brand" of the format that they are trying to promote.

Well and the fact that no ban list can stop collusion, which is the real competitive MP issue.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 7:26 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
cheethorne wrote:
The needs of each of these formats are different enough that I can understand that not one (unpaid) group wants to maintain all three lists and for the RC, they feel it dilutes the "brand" of the format that they are trying to promote.

Well and the fact that no ban list can stop collusion, which is the real competitive MP issue.


Collusion is really overstated. We run 40+ player tournaments and there has never been any collusion. You just make the ruleset so as to eliminate it and you're fine. Our ruleset disallows suicide plays (which would allow you to concede immediately), concessions in the multi-round of the event and so on. While there are definitely politics, colluding for what amounts to $15 store credit at the bottom end, and $30 at the top end, split between two to three people, is pointless.

You just need to be a grown up about it. We use the standard banned list for our events 1 v 1 or otherwise.

_________________
Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 9:23 am 

Joined: 2013-Feb-01 8:15 am
Age: Drake
Collusion gets worse the higher in prize you go. You cannot insist there is no problem by stating "There is no collusion," nor does "we made a rule that stops it." If such things were true, murder wouldn't exist, but even if it did it only matters when the murdered are really, really rich, right?

Collusion is a problem even when there is no seeming "prize" to be had, not just because it makes some people fight for "insignificant" prizes or even the fame winning a large or medium scale tourney might provide, or that you are competing against your peers but unfairly. It matters because the players NOT in on it are left out while the colluding players are "teaming up" to render them pointless. It becomes a game of 2 v 2 that was never stated at the beginning, so if those players are trying to play the game legitimately, they are weakened already rather than having spent their time fighting this pair of colluders. It means the point of a free-for-all is lost.

And yeah, money might mean something to those players. $15 might seem a drop in a bucket for Mr. Beta Duals, but it's not for someone trying to build up a nice EDH deck he's been working on for a few weeks. Punch the kid down!


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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 9:46 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
CrazyPierre wrote:
Collusion is really overstated. We run 40+ player tournaments and there has never been any collusion.
Yes there has, you just didn't know about it. Just like FNM or poker or anything else with a prize, there will be some collusion. Sure, you can minimize it with rules, but to pretend it does not exist is foolish.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 10:05 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
CrazyPierre wrote:
Collusion is really overstated. We run 40+ player tournaments and there has never been any collusion.
Yes there has, you just didn't know about it. Just like FNM or poker or anything else with a prize, there will be some collusion. Sure, you can minimize it with rules, but to pretend it does not exist is foolish.

I really have to agree here. If you're hosting 40+ tournaments with any kind of prize support then there are players who are working together. No question.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 11:35 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You guys got any proof of this?

First of all, the pods are randomized. So you're not playing with your friend at the same pod.
Second of all, there are 5-6 judges there at all times. Two to three are usually playing, another two to three watching the tables.
Third of all, the rules are set up so that you can't give a player the game or so on.

And...you'll really have to take my word on this, but I've never seen it or experienced it at any event. And we run these weekly. The pods and players are just too unpredictable for any one player to do so.

Let me give you an example. We had one player on Azami, Lady of Scolls. I was on Radha, another was on Exava and a third on Skullbriar. Azami tried to politic into a table win but just got a bunch of burn thrown at her head.

You want to bluff anything? Can't, all cards to be played must be revealed to the table prior to casting. So if you're going to "pretend" that you're going to Wrath you need to show the Wrath.
You're also seated diagonally from your partner in round 2 and can't share any info with them alone. You have to tell the whole table what you're going to do.

So, you're more than free to say that there's collusion at these events, but then you need to present evidence. I'm 100% sure there aren't any at the 1 v 1 events. And I'd go as far as saying I'm 94% sure about the Gauntlets.

And the kid with no duals? That's about 70% of the playfield. There's one guy that runs Beta/Alpha everything, others with tricked out decks...one guy has a $5,000 Edric deck and that still didn't help him. When he started getting ahead Wraths dropped and so on.

Oh, and the organizers would ban anyone that cheated/stole/threatened. They've banned one guy that stole, banned another that threatened. It's an absolutely awesome environment. Hell, there are 4-5 EDH tournaments of varying sizes each week here in Ottawa...one on Wednesday, one on Sunday, two on Saturday, one on Thursday.

Not one complaint or accusation so far...and it's been going on for close to four years. :)

That isn't to say that it doesn't happen at events like GenCon (see the EDH Mafia thread) but not so far here.

_________________
Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 11:45 am 

Joined: 2013-Feb-01 8:15 am
Age: Drake
CrazyPierre wrote:
You guys got any proof of this?


Human nature.

And since the quarrel
Will bear no color for the thing he is,
Fashion it thus: that what he is, augmented,
Would run to these and these extremities;
And therefore think him as a serpent's egg,
Which, hatch'd, would as his kind grow mischievous,
And kill him in the shell.

--W. Shakespeare, Julius Caesar - act 2:scene 1

"Lesson number one: trust no one! The minute God crapped out the third caveman, a conspiracy was hatched against one of them!"
-- Col. Hunter Gathers, the Venture Brothers

Groups will find ways to cooperate and find the situation that advantages them, even if they do not know who each other is. A good example of this is the prisoner's dilemma.


Last edited by EightPointFive on 2014-Feb-04 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 11:50 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
CrazyPierre wrote:
You want to bluff anything? Can't, all cards to be played must be revealed to the table prior to casting. So if you're going to "pretend" that you're going to Wrath you need to show the Wrath.
You're also seated diagonally from your partner in round 2 and can't share any info with them alone. You have to tell the whole table what you're going to do.




....What? Bluffing is a key part of playing Magic. That blue player with the two islands untapped? holding up a single card while saying "nope"... You're saying he has to show that Counterspell? Putting your hand on mana as a bluffed response? If you're a good player, you can psych out an opponent into stopping a lot of things without having the card you need. It's a smart tactic if you can pull it off.

What you're saying there... Is just moronic.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 11:53 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't disagree that there are poltiics, it is multiplayer.
I simply disagree that there is a shadow clique of EDH players in Ottawa that are colluding to win tournaments where the top reward is $15 in store credit at one store ($5 entry) and around $24-$32 at another event ($5 entry).

I'm not trying to be obstinate or naive 8.5, I just know the environment.
Basically: "Is it worth $35 to you to never play EDH again, never be allowed in any of the stores again, and to need to move to another city?"

Because basically, that's what happens in Ottawa. We have a social contract of sorts around the events. If ever you're in Ottawa or on Facebook I'll put you in touch with organizers and you can speak with them about it.

We've never had a problem with perceived cheating/collusion, just with getting more events at the Saturday tournies. We cap out at 8 generally. :p

_________________
Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not create an 1v1 banlist?
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 11:57 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:

....What? Bluffing is a key part of playing Magic. That blue player with the two islands untapped? holding up a single card while saying "nope"... You're saying he has to show that Counterspell? Putting your hand on mana as a bluffed response? If you're a good player, you can psych out an opponent into stopping a lot of things without having the card you need. It's a smart tactic if you can pull it off.

What you're saying there... Is just moronic.


It's the way it works here. You can try to bluff but we will call your bluff. And when that happens you do need to show the card, or you'll be accused of cheating/misrepresenting. :) This is in the multi and 2 v 2 portions of the event. In the 1 v 1 you can mind games and so on.

I don't know if it's moronic as you say, but we have a ruleset that works, that keeps things efficient and rolling and it draws between 30-40 each week to compete, so maybe we're a ship of fools drifting happily along. :)

_________________
Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


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