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 Post subject: Why not ban "Blatant Thievery" it almost same with "S.P."
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 9:50 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-04 7:38 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Thailand
i have seen " Sylvan Primordial " get banned .
and i think " Blatant Thievery " and " Sylvan Primordial " have almost same results .

1. same
1.1 cost 7
1.2 each opponent lost 1 permanent
1.3 owner get 1 more permanent

2. advantages on " Blatant Thievery "
2.1 can target " permanent "
2.2 highly chance for owner to get better permanent than a " forest "

3. advantages on " Sylvan Primordial "
3.1 " 6/8 reach " a big defender
3.2 have more chance to reuse it ( reanimate from grave , copy it )

in my personality i dont care for " Sylvan Primordial " get banned but just dont know how different with " Blatant Thievery " .


thank you
sorry if have confusion for my language .


Last edited by Nioreh on 2014-Feb-03 11:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why not ban " Blatant Thievery "
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 9:56 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
This is to obviously a troll post.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not ban " Blatant Thievery "
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 11:10 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I disagree...seems more like an ogre.

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 Post subject: Re: Why not ban "Blatant Thievery" it almost same with "S.P."
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 11:23 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-04 7:38 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Thailand
er . . . pls some great gentle human explain an opposite reason or some argument .
for this ogre .

i think this a discussion if not discuss nothing better .
if i know other player's idea maybe better.


thank you for any attention.
sorry if have confusion for my language .


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 Post subject: Re: Why not ban "Blatant Thievery" it almost same with "S.P."
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 11:53 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Nioreh wrote:
er . . . pls some great gentle human explain an opposite reason or some argument .
for this ogre .

i think this a discussion if not discuss nothing better .
if i know other player's idea maybe better.

BT cannot be cheated into play very easily, and it cannot be blinked, because it is not a creature. This is not destroying anything, and not ramping you with dual lands. Sure you might get lucky and grab a land or two that helps you, but that an expensive blue ramp spell at that point. Add to that its not a 6/8 reach that can be reanimated quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: Why not ban "Blatant Thievery" it almost same with "S.P."
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 12:01 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
Nioreh wrote:
er . . . pls some great gentle human explain an opposite reason or some argument .
for this ogre .

i think this a discussion if not discuss nothing better .
if i know other player's idea maybe better.

BT cannot be cheated into play very easily, and it cannot be blinked, because it is not a creature. This is not destroying anything, and not ramping you with dual lands. Sure you might get lucky and grab a land or two that helps you, but that an expensive blue ramp spell at that point. Add to that its not a 6/8 reach that can be reanimated quickly.


Or cloned, cloned, cloned.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not ban "Blatant Thievery" it almost same with "S.P."
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 12:18 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-04 7:38 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Thailand
Nioreh wrote:
er . . . pls some great gentle human explain an opposite reason or some argument .
for this ogre .

i think this a discussion if not discuss nothing better .
if i know other player's idea maybe better.


thank you for any attention.
sorry if have confusion for my language .


really thank for a real discuss

first i agree with
1. SP easier cheat in to play
2. SP reuse and copy easier
3.* yes i know maybe SP cast easier with green ramp card, but i think this point hard to compare cause every color still can ramp with many " artifact mana boost " too

but im still think advantages on BT is great results enough
1. BT not except for creature
2. i know dual land can be search but BT can steal some permanent that better than land
3. SP cant respond with "commander". i think card that can steal commander and not "end of turn" effect is useful too
4. BT sometime can use " copy spell " card too.


thank you for any attention.
sorry if have confusion for my language .


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 Post subject: Re: Why not ban "Blatant Thievery" it almost same with "S.P."
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 6:13 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Nioreh wrote:
Nioreh wrote:
er . . . pls some great gentle human explain an opposite reason or some argument .
for this ogre .

i think this a discussion if not discuss nothing better .
if i know other player's idea maybe better.


thank you for any attention.
sorry if have confusion for my language .


really thank for a real discuss

first i agree with
1. SP easier cheat in to play
2. SP reuse and copy easier
3.* yes i know maybe SP cast easier with green ramp card, but i think this point hard to compare cause every color still can ramp with many " artifact mana boost " too

but im still think advantages on BT is great results enough
1. BT not except for creature
2. i know dual land can be search but BT can steal some permanent that better than land
3. SP cant respond with "commander". i think card that can steal commander and not "end of turn" effect is useful too
4. BT sometime can use " copy spell " card too.


thank you for any attention.
sorry if have confusion for my language .

The advantages for BT are pretty weak.
1./2. BT lets you steal creatures or cards better than lands.
This is an option, yes, but you can mitigate theft really easily. Homeward Path is a card. Additionally, the things you are stealing aren't 'better' than lands. If steal a bunch of non-land permanents, and someone plays Akroma's Vengeance, Blatant Thievery will have gotten you nowhere.

Sylvan Primordial's gains are not easily mitigated. It's hard to deal with a bunch of forests, that enable more powerful plays (i.e. you have to be willing to play Armageddon, or Boom // Bust). If your Commander group is at all typical, creature sweepers (like Wrath of God) are much more common than land destruction, and the benefits of playing a Sylvan Primordial over time will far outweigh a casting of Blatant Thievery.

3. Stealing Commanders is highly unreliable. Many players play with Sacrifice outlets, like High Market so that if you target their commander with something like Blatant Thievery, they will be happy to sacrifice it in response, and re-cast it later. Sylvan Primordial destroys lands, which makes it harder to re-cast commanders entirely.

4. It's really hard to copy Blatant Thievery. You're already 7 mana deep for Thievery, and you'll need at least two more mana to copy it even once, and you only get to do that while Blatant Thievery is on the stack. For 9 mana, an existing Sylvan Primordial can be copied 5 times with a kicked Rite of Replication. And you can try it again next turn, over and over. Further, even if you copy Blatant Thievery, you're not going to get the powerful triggers for a creature entering the battlefield. If I play a Sylvan Primordial, and then you steal it with Blatant Thievery, I don't actually care; I've already got a bunch more forests, destroyed a bunch of permanents, and am ready to cast the next big bomb. You just got a 6/8 reach body and some permanents from other players.

-----

More than anything, I think you're underselling the idea that Sylvan Primordial is problematic because it's a creature. Someone can cast Flash on turn 2, put in a Sylvan Primordial (which immediately dies, but who cares), and suddenly has 6 lands to everyone else's 1. Same goes for Entomb/Buried Alive and any Animate Dead tactics. You won't even get a chance to cast Blatant Thievery. Blatant Thievery and Sylvan Primordial might cost 7 mana, but you'll find that no one actually pays 7 mana for Sylvan Primordial. The ease of using a Sylvan Primordial is a problem that Blatant Thievery doesn't have.

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 Post subject: Re: Why not ban "Blatant Thievery" it almost same with "S.P."
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 7:20 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Nioreh wrote:
er . . . pls some great gentle human explain an opposite reason or some argument .
for this ogre .

i think this a discussion if not discuss nothing better .
if i know other player's idea maybe better.
thank you for any attention.
sorry if have confusion for my language .


Sylvan Primordial is a creature and thus excessively easy to play, cheat into play and copy.
Sylvan Primordial ramps you. so in a typical 4-player pod you get 3 forests, then you can start geting more triggers (Strionic Resonator) and so on, then your opponent can get some too.
A lot easier to abuse creatures than sorceries.

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 Post subject: Re: Why not ban "Blatant Thievery" it almost same with "S.P."
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 7:35 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
There's also the fact that Blatant Thievery just isn't running rampant through the format the way SyPrime did. In the time I've been reading and posting on these boards, I've seen MAYBE one complaint about Blatant Thievery, and it shows up in decklists occasionally. SyPrime is bitched about constantly, and shows up in decklists far more. If BT had nearly that level of ubiquity and revulsion, it wouldn't be far-fetched to ask why it isn't banned. But it doesn't, so there's really no comparison.

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 Post subject: Re: Why not ban "Blatant Thievery" it almost same with "S.P."
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 8:28 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
I think you are right to compare Blatant Thievery with a fairly cast Sylvan Primordial. They are of similar power levels, with BT being slightly more potent. As everyone else has said, though, the problem is the unfairly cheated SP. Creatures are the easiest to cheat into play and the easiest to copy. Somebody can copy a BT, but that requires using spells that are generally less useful than clones and reanimation.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the first SP is usually fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Why not ban "Blatant Thievery" it almost same with "S.P."
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 10:25 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-04 7:38 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Thailand
Ok i can understand other player idea now .
i will stop this topic at here .

Thank you very much for any attention and intention .

Thank you .


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