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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 12:20 pm 

Joined: 2013-Mar-17 4:45 pm
Age: Wyvern
Carthain wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
"supposed to be social" is a matter of opinion.

I don't think it is.

Commander is guided by the RC, and if the RC states that the format, as intended to be played, is supposed to be a social format -- then there it is. Not really any room for opinion on that.

How much different playgroups incorporate that idea into their decks & metagame is a completely different story - but that doesn't change that Commander is supposed to be casual.

Tournament or 1-on-1 Commander isn't what the format is designed for, so anytime you apply either of those aspects, you're no longer playing the same format, as you lose part of the format that appeals to many players (not all, probably nowhere near all in fact.)


If it's "supposed" to be social, then maybe they should get a bigger banlist. I, personally, prefer following the rules to the letter instead of subjecting myself to vague, unspoken, flowery-ass "social contracts". If they don't like what their creation is becoming, then they should adjust it accordingly.

Whether or not the RC says this format is casual doesn't make the word any less subjective, and lord knows it is in this clusterfuck we call EDH.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 12:36 pm 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
TeaLobster wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
"supposed to be social" is a matter of opinion.

I don't think it is.

Commander is guided by the RC, and if the RC states that the format, as intended to be played, is supposed to be a social format -- then there it is. Not really any room for opinion on that.

How much different playgroups incorporate that idea into their decks & metagame is a completely different story - but that doesn't change that Commander is supposed to be casual.

Tournament or 1-on-1 Commander isn't what the format is designed for, so anytime you apply either of those aspects, you're no longer playing the same format, as you lose part of the format that appeals to many players (not all, probably nowhere near all in fact.)


If it's "supposed" to be social, then maybe they should get a bigger banlist. I, personally, prefer following the rules to the letter instead of subjecting myself to vague, unspoken, flowery-ass "social contracts". If they don't like what their creation is becoming, then they should adjust it accordingly.

Whether or not the RC says this format is casual doesn't make the word any less subjective, and lord knows it is in this clusterfuck we call EDH.


this dude knows his shit, well said.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 12:52 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
TeaLobster wrote:
If they don't like what their creation is becoming, then they should adjust it accordingly.

Why should they? They don't have to play with miserable people if they don't want.

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"(P)art of the joy of Commander (is) being forced to work with what we (have), even if it (isn't) optimal. Optimal usually isn't that interesting." - papa funk


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 1:00 pm 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
tarnar wrote:
TeaLobster wrote:
If they don't like what their creation is becoming, then they should adjust it accordingly.

Why should they? They don't have to play with miserable people if they don't want.


part of being social ironically is hanging out with people who don't all have the same opinion as you. Sometimes One person's miserable is another person's happy, sometimes five happy people get together and end up making each other miserable, it just happens.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 1:03 pm 

Joined: 2013-Mar-17 4:45 pm
Age: Wyvern
Gath Immortal wrote:
this dude knows his shit, well said.


Damn right.

tarnar wrote:
TeaLobster wrote:
If they don't like what their creation is becoming, then they should adjust it accordingly.

Why should they? They don't have to play with miserable people if they don't want.


I'm glad you asked. It's because they're not "miserable people," they're just normal players whose desire (in a game where there, in the end, is one victor) is to win, and they're following all of the rules for doing so. What other format do you know of where it's considered socially acceptable to complain about perfectly legal strategies you aren't willing to muster the brainpower to beat?


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 1:15 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
TeaLobster wrote:
I'm glad you asked. It's because they're not "miserable people," they're just normal players whose desire (in a game where there, in the end, is one victor) is to win, and they're following all of the rules for doing so. What other format do you know of where it's considered socially acceptable to complain about perfectly legal strategies you aren't willing to muster the brainpower to beat?
That's a pretty serious false dichotomy. Just because a strategy is legal does not mean people who don't beat it don't have the brainpower. I was going to do a whole thing, but the point would be lost on you. You play only to win, and that's fine, but don't expect the world to center around that idea.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 1:20 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
TeaLobster wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
this dude knows his shit, well said.
Damn right.

Auto-fellatio is unbecoming.

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"(P)art of the joy of Commander (is) being forced to work with what we (have), even if it (isn't) optimal. Optimal usually isn't that interesting." - papa funk


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 1:40 pm 

Joined: 2013-Mar-17 4:45 pm
Age: Wyvern
MRHblue wrote:
TeaLobster wrote:
I'm glad you asked. It's because they're not "miserable people," they're just normal players whose desire (in a game where there, in the end, is one victor) is to win, and they're following all of the rules for doing so. What other format do you know of where it's considered socially acceptable to complain about perfectly legal strategies you aren't willing to muster the brainpower to beat?
That's a pretty serious false dichotomy. Just because a strategy is legal does not mean people who don't beat it don't have the brainpower. I was going to do a whole thing, but the point would be lost on you. You play only to win, and that's fine, but don't expect the world to center around that idea.


That's why I invoked the principle of charity and worded it ever so carefully so as to assume that they do have the brainpower, but fail to use it.

And I don't expect the world to revolve around my playstyle, but you've gotta admit, this format would be a whole lot healthier and both casuals and tryhards would have a whole lot less about which to complain if the rules more clearly reflected the RC's intentions instead of letting people be all silent social contracty and passive-aggressive with each other.

tarnar wrote:
TeaLobster wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
this dude knows his shit, well said.
Damn right.

Auto-fellatio is unbecoming.


That's hilariously contradictory, 'cause I have an immature mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 1:44 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
TeaLobster wrote:
And I don't expect the world to revolve around my playstyle, but you've gotta admit, this format would be a whole lot healthier and both casuals and tryhards would have a whole lot less about which to complain if the rules more clearly reflected the RC's intentions instead of letting people be all silent social contracty and passive-aggressive with each other.

You mean a huge ban list? Because I do not think the format would be a lot healthier with that.

Anyone that loses to you is "casual" and anyone who beats you is a "tryhard"? Did I get that part right?

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 1:57 pm 

Joined: 2013-Mar-17 4:45 pm
Age: Wyvern
MRHblue wrote:
You mean a huge ban list? Because I do not think the format would be a lot healthier with that.


EDH can't be treated like the other formats. I may be a tryhard, but I'm not blind to the plight of the casuals. If the banlists were separated, whining wouldn't be socially acceptable anymore.

MRHblue wrote:
Anyone that loses to you is "casual" and anyone who beats you is a "tryhard"? Did I get that part right?


You're way off. To me, "tryhard" isn't a word laced with negative emotions. I simply don't believe that "competitive" EDH is a thing; it's just "tryhard" and "casual".


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 2:07 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
TeaLobster wrote:
but you've gotta admit, this format would be a whole lot healthier and both casuals and tryhards would have a whole lot less about which to complain...

If the entire intent is to stop people from complaining so much, you're setting yourself up for failure. People will always complain, no matter what the rules are. If your intent is to improve the format, go right ahead and provide that new ban list, and test it out. Why should the work only be done by the RC?

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 2:33 pm 

Joined: 2013-Feb-01 8:15 am
Age: Drake
TeaLobster wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
"supposed to be social" is a matter of opinion.

I don't think it is.

Commander is guided by the RC, and if the RC states that the format, as intended to be played, is supposed to be a social format -- then there it is. Not really any room for opinion on that.

How much different playgroups incorporate that idea into their decks & metagame is a completely different story - but that doesn't change that Commander is supposed to be casual.

Tournament or 1-on-1 Commander isn't what the format is designed for, so anytime you apply either of those aspects, you're no longer playing the same format, as you lose part of the format that appeals to many players (not all, probably nowhere near all in fact.)


If it's "supposed" to be social, then maybe they should get a bigger banlist. I, personally, prefer following the rules to the letter instead of subjecting myself to vague, unspoken, flowery-ass "social contracts". If they don't like what their creation is becoming, then they should adjust it accordingly.

Whether or not the RC says this format is casual doesn't make the word any less subjective, and lord knows it is in this clusterfuck we call EDH.

The reason the banlist isn't much bigger is because the group doesn't want to take the social aspect of self-regulating out of the hands of the local playgroups. That would be a violation of the casualness of the format, not an appreciation of it.

That is also why it is a "suggested" banlist.

If your group cannot control themselves, then everyone in it who has the ability to stand up and say "Stop!" but doesn't deserves it. If people leave, and they do so because he cannot have a "fun" time with a less empowered deck, it seems that the group has some responsibility to tone things down.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 2:41 pm 

Joined: 2014-Feb-03 6:18 am
Age: Hatchling
Flash, Natural Order, and reanimation will continue to abusive either ban lots of those cards or lots of creatures that can cause Land Destruction seems your only 2 options.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 2:59 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Well then - since I've apparently opened the Pyxis Pandora's Box here, I guess I'd better chime in on some of this;

TeaLobster wrote:
What other format do you know of where it's considered socially acceptable to complain about perfectly legal strategies you aren't willing to muster the brainpower to beat?

We'll start here. Disliking something and complaining about it does not mean you lack brainpower or the will to use it. Certain people find certain strategies tiresome and unfun regardless of whether those strategies beat them. Taking an elitist tone like that about the subject does nothing for this discussion. I'll use mass LD as an example here. I've won plenty of games where mass LD spells have resolved, but that doesn't stop me from disliking it, nor does it stop me from avoiding games with people that tend to run it.
Gath Immortal wrote:
part of being social ironically is hanging out with people who don't all have the same opinion as you.

Another part of being social is accepting that sometimes for the sake of civility it is necessary to exercise restraint about one's opinions. If you're a Yankees fan, it might be in your best interests not to cheer loudly for them in a Boston sports bar. If you love massLD.dec, and everyone else at the table wants to punch you somewhere personal when you run it, it is likewise a good idea not to. That doesn't invalidate your opinion that mass LD is fun, nor does it mean it's not a good strategy - it just means it's worth considering the viewpoints of others. Some people aren't good at this or just don't care - hence why I play few games with our favorite Starcraft fanatic, despite the fact that I like him personally - he only plays one type of deck, and it's generally not much fun to watch him jack off for a few minutes and win after we just spent longer than that shuffling up for the game.
TeaLobster wrote:
That's hilariously contradictory, 'cause I have an immature mind.

Yeah, I went the same place on that one.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 3:07 pm 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Another part of being social is accepting that sometimes for the sake of civility it is necessary to exercise restraint about one's opinions. If you're a Yankees fan, it might be in your best interests not to cheer loudly for them in a Boston sports bar. If you love massLD.dec, and everyone else at the table wants to punch you somewhere personal when you run it, it is likewise a good idea not to. That doesn't invalidate your opinion that mass LD is fun, nor does it mean it's not a good strategy - it just means it's worth considering the viewpoints of others. Some people aren't good at this or just don't care - hence why I play few games with our favorite Starcraft fanatic, despite the fact that I like him personally - he only plays one type of deck, and it's generally not much fun to watch him jack off for a few minutes and win after we just spent longer than that shuffling up for the game.


and yet I'm not the only one sleeving up offensive cards, "being the better man" while a distinction I would prefer to have, is a lot harder than shooting people in the dick and running away. Then again no one likes an unethical dickshooter. I do try to make nice decks sometimes, but I often feel like it just ends up biting me in the ass.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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