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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 6:31 am 

Joined: 2013-Feb-01 8:15 am
Age: Drake
24x30cl wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Only because it wasn't may ability

If it was a "may" ability the card could be used in a less douchy manner, but unlike Terastodon which gives your opponent stuff and thus the card itself sometimes forces you to take less, SP promotes taking more than you need. So even if it was "may", you would still have an incentive to ignore the "may" for the land. And lets face it:

niheloim wrote:
EDH players have [...] shown they can't be trusted to play nice


All great points. However, I've had more than one player tell me that they'd play Sylvan "fair" if it had a "may." That is, if it had the ability to select which player(s) would get the nuke. Sometimes, it sucks to drop Sylvan when two guys have bad permanents but the third opponent is way behind and you don't want to hurt them further. Sometimes that guys understands -- but sometimes that guy just scoops.

Which is a problem, because Online, you DO have a "may" option. It's just no one thinks it's there and thus rarely uses it. The game permits the player to select targets or to select "OK" and once OK is hit the game just hits the chosen targets, even if there are less than 3 (or in the largest supported games, 5).

But there ARE people who would have preferred the may. The reason it isn't there is that unlike the others, you have less of a chance to grab a dud: There's always a land. With Diluvian, you're given the option to NOT grab the Wrath (but can if you stack it right); or with Sepulchral a creature with bad effects for you (My fave is Desolation Angel or Phage).


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 7:44 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm on the fence with this one.
I don't think it needed to be banned, although I'm glad it was.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 8:21 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
tempesteye wrote:
I'm on the fence with this one.
I don't think it needed to be banned, although I'm glad it was.

This.

I've seen a few games ruined by excessive SyPrime use (mainly, ironically, by Gath_Immortal), but also some where it just came down once and blew some shit up. That said, I won't miss it.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 8:29 am 

Joined: 2011-Jun-04 2:20 pm
Age: Dragon
I'm ok with the banning. We should get more interesting games that are more fun due to mana bases not getting wrecked on turn 4 or 5.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 5:09 pm 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
tempesteye wrote:
I'm on the fence with this one.
I don't think it needed to be banned, although I'm glad it was.

This.

I've seen a few games ruined by excessive SyPrime use (mainly, ironically, by Gath_Immortal), but also some where it just came down once and blew some shit up. That said, I won't miss it.


what? it's not my fault wizards prints stupidly abusable cards...

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 5:59 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
what? it's not my fault wizards prints stupidly abusable cards...
It's a pretty immature attitude to say 'I can, therefore I shall" in regards to a game this is supposed to be social. Absolve yourself if you like, but that's going to be the minority position.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 6:21 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jul-15 6:33 pm
Age: Drake
Independent of whether I think this guy should be banned, I just want to say that I knew this guy was getting banned from almost the minute I saw him. That's part of why I never actually bothered to pick one up. I'm glad now, because that saved me the heartache of having to part ways with yet another big jerk friend, like Sundering Titan and Primeval Titan. Lost, but not forgotten.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 6:25 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Magnetic North wrote:
Independent of whether I think this guy should be banned, I just want to say that I knew this guy was getting banned from almost the minute I saw him. That's part of why I never actually bothered to pick one up. I'm glad now, because that saved me the heartache of having to part ways with yet another big jerk friend, like Sundering Titan and Primeval Titan. Lost, but not forgotten.

Well, I agree with PT.

I spent 15 minutes trying to find a way to argue that ST wasn't necessarily justified, but the truth is that, while I really like including ST in some of my decks, it was a griefer card. So yeah ...

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 6:56 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
24x30cl wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Only because it wasn't may ability


That's not at all what I get from the explanation the RC gave:

Genomancer wrote:
If the card was just a big ramp, or just utility destruction, or just spot land destruction, it would likely be fine but by combining both factors it becomes ubiquitous, frequently overwhelming, and repetitive.


To me it sounds like the problem was that it combined the ability to destroy non-creature permanents (including lands) with insane ramp. Worst case scenario it gives you a 2 land advantage per opponent.

If it was a "may" ability the card could be used in a less douchy manner, but unlike Terastodon which gives your opponent stuff and thus the card itself sometimes forces you to take less, SP promotes taking more than you need. So even if it was "may", you would still have an incentive to ignore the "may" for the land. And lets face it:

niheloim wrote:
EDH players have [...] shown they can't be trusted to play nice

If there was a may ability I'm sure there would be games where an early Sylvan left the one or two guys alone and blew up the other guys crap. I've personally had games where I wanted to nuke something but would have to really set a player back- which isn't always the smart play.

If it was may social pressure could have taken a greater hold on it.

But in the end... it probably would have been banned. cuz y'know, edh players.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 7:32 pm 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
what? it's not my fault wizards prints stupidly abusable cards...
It's a pretty immature attitude to say 'I can, therefore I shall" in regards to a game this is supposed to be social. Absolve yourself if you like, but that's going to be the minority position.


"supposed to be social" is a matter of opinion. Just because the RC endorses the format as such doesn't mean everyone follows it. We have a large crowd around here who all have a habit of quoting what's "optimal" when running stupid borked up cards that no one likes dealing with, so it becomes a game of "if you can't beat them, join them, take their club, ram it somewhere unpleasant multiple times until we all want to kill each other"

the LGS does not control the environment or the tone at all, so half of us end up pissed off half the time. While I don't particularly like the environment I also don't like losing, so yeah, I end up being a hypocrite, doesn't necessarily make me incorrect, just morally bankrupt, and I can probably live with that, at least for now.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 9:22 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 5:13 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Midwest USA
I for one am really not going to miss him.

I wish the Primordials had just had an "if you cast it from your hand" clause like the myojins. That would have made it much more tolerable.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 11:13 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I like it. Would make my son sad that he couldnt cascade into them.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 7:33 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
what? it's not my fault wizards prints stupidly abusable cards...
It's a pretty immature attitude to say 'I can, therefore I shall" in regards to a game this is supposed to be social. Absolve yourself if you like, but that's going to be the minority position.


Having a casual deck mindset is fine, but eventually you morph to your playgroup.
EDH has become pretty competitive around here and our only hope for redress is a ban every three months. We can sometimes agree that some stuff is stupid but mostly it's: "It's not banned so it's ok."

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Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 8:30 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
If SP was "may," it would still be just as problematic. Being able to play your cards suboptimally doesn't make them any less abusable; it just makes you feel like a jerk for doing the right play.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-04 11:17 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
"supposed to be social" is a matter of opinion.

I don't think it is.

Commander is guided by the RC, and if the RC states that the format, as intended to be played, is supposed to be a social format -- then there it is. Not really any room for opinion on that.

How much different playgroups incorporate that idea into their decks & metagame is a completely different story - but that doesn't change that Commander is supposed to be casual.

Tournament or 1-on-1 Commander isn't what the format is designed for, so anytime you apply either of those aspects, you're no longer playing the same format, as you lose part of the format that appeals to many players (not all, probably nowhere near all in fact.)


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