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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-01 8:29 pm 

Joined: 2013-Feb-01 8:15 am
Age: Drake
charlequin wrote:
EightPointFive wrote:
Naw, he just doesn't understand it. That's how the legend rule gets changed ("It's a drawback! people hate drawbacks!"*), how extort was made ("CI only matters in EDH, I think hybrid should be usable in monocolor decks, and this allows us to make hybrid for EDH!"**), and how cards for EDH are printed ("Our Market Research Shows that EDH Players Really, Really Like Things That You Can Abuse the Heck Out Of."***).

The hand-wringing online Commander players did about the latest legend rule (a change that was prompted by issues with other formats and which hasn't really ruined anything in practice) and especially about extort (a great mechanic, executed correctly, that shouldn't bother anyone except the most nitpicky consistency lovers) does nothing but make other, more reasonable concerns get less airtime by making the community sound unreasonable. (Same thing goes for all the paranoia about Wizards taking over the format, or the complaining when normal Magic rules changes impact the Commander format indirectly.) I'm quite doubtful this format was anything but a tertiary concern with either of these changes.


Extort's cost embedded in the reminder text only affects games where the cost influences color identity, which only really matters for EDH. Had extort had the cost in the rules text like it's supposed to (and does, technically) it would function the same in any other format it could be played in except EDH, in which it could only go into WB(x) decks. For cards or mechanics made specially for EDH that work nowhere else (Opal Palace, command zone-matters generals) this is different: they cannot function otherwise, but are so limited to enable a particular format. So the way the mechanic was built is a problem.

Yes, I agree that attention focused on the debate over it pulls attn from other problems of cards being made that muck with the game's overall "fun" limit and pushes the game into "for the Spikes" and less "for the Timmies/Johnnies." (As a Timmy/Spike, I totally "get" the issue, I think.)


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-02 1:58 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
My issue with extort is that it has reminder text. I'm fine with a hybrid cost being embedded where the edh rules don't see it, but it irks me to no end to see said hybrid on completely legal mono-colored cards. Its the aesthetics!

I think I'm going to paint the symbols myself now that I'm thinking about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-02 10:20 pm 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Thanks for banning Sylvan Primordial. :) I continue to hope for Deadeye Navigator to find its way there as well, but this was a great decision.
:D

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Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-02 10:25 pm 

Joined: 2012-Nov-13 10:03 am
Age: Wyvern
I think the ban of this card is ludicrous. It's a fair and powerful card, it's readily available and cheap enough that everyone can get one. No one is calling for the ban of Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad or Mana Crypt, because those cards are powerful and unfair, but they are so hard to acquire that no one complains because no one really plays against them. I'm disappointed at the DH community and council once again.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-02 10:42 pm 

Joined: 2014-Feb-02 10:38 pm
Age: Hatchling
It is frankly ridiculous that Sylvan Primordial has been banned but Deadeye Navigator is still allowed. Deadeye dodged removal and turns mos cards into a degenerate two card combo. But Sylvan Primordial is clearly the culprit. Pffffft.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-02 10:59 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jan-14 2:37 pm
Age: Wyvern
Bazaaretw wrote:
I think the ban of this card is ludicrous. It's a fair and powerful card, it's readily available and cheap enough that everyone can get one. No one is calling for the ban of Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad or Mana Crypt, because those cards are powerful and unfair, but they are so hard to acquire that no one complains because no one really plays against them. I'm disappointed at the DH community and council once again.


I have some friends who I play against regularly who have mana crypts and mana drains, and while both of those cards are strong it's rare that they singlehandedly warp a game, the exception being when you can mana drain and use the mana to cast an eldrazi or something really early. Even then, Mana Drain is a reactive spell, and the player casting it needs to have it in hand with open mana at the right time, and you need someone else to be casting something big (and not have a counter of their own). Sylvan Primordial can ruin a game pretty much all on it's own. It's a proactive card and the ETB trigger can be repeated in various ways, whereas Mana Drain is only a one-time effect (maybe twice, but not many decks play a lot of GY recursion of spells). I have no experience playing against Workshop of Bazaar in EDH, but workshop gives basically the same effect as Mana Crypt with a different drawback (only artifacts vs maybe damaging you) that's arguably a lot worse, and Bazaar is good but it's really only ridiculous in a dredge-style deck.

Bottom line is, in decks featuring all of those cards, Sylvan Primordial is at least as likely to end the game (or make it stop being fun for other players) as those other, far more expensive cards. And it's not irrelevant that since SP is so much less expensive, it is in a lot more decks around the world, and therefore is a problem in more games total than those cards you mentioned.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-02 11:02 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Sylvan Primordial in the vacuum is fair, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. The first time it comes down is usually fine if it is turn 5 or later. Ramping it out early is problematic, but the real issue is that it doesn't come down once. It polarizes games into a clone/reanimate/blink fest that are eye-stabbingly terrible.

Mana Drain is a substantially fairer card than SP in this format. It trades 1-for-1 and gives you a boost to mana for 1 turn. That is powerful, but if you're getting big mana out of it, you're at a part of the game where big plays are happening.

The others are also potentially busted, and if they were more ubiquitous they might get the axe. However, they get their power when they are in decks that are geared in a particular direction. They hit hard and fast, but you aren't going to include one of them if that isn't the style of game you're looking for. It is easy to look at SP, decide that it is a pretty good way to answer artifacts and stuff and just toss it into a green deck. It is sneaky about being a bad thing for the format.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-02 11:10 pm 

Joined: 2012-Nov-13 10:03 am
Age: Wyvern
bclare wrote:
Bazaaretw wrote:
I think the ban of this card is ludicrous. It's a fair and powerful card, it's readily available and cheap enough that everyone can get one. No one is calling for the ban of Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad or Mana Crypt, because those cards are powerful and unfair, but they are so hard to acquire that no one complains because no one really plays against them. I'm disappointed at the DH community and council once again.


I have some friends who I play against regularly who have mana crypts and mana drains, and while both of those cards are strong it's rare that they singlehandedly warp a game, the exception being when you can mana drain and use the mana to cast an eldrazi or something really early. Even then, Mana Drain is a reactive spell, and the player casting it needs to have it in hand with open mana at the right time, and you need someone else to be casting something big (and not have a counter of their own). Sylvan Primordial can ruin a game pretty much all on it's own. It's a proactive card and the ETB trigger can be repeated in various ways, whereas Mana Drain is only a one-time effect (maybe twice, but not many decks play a lot of GY recursion of spells). I have no experience playing against Workshop of Bazaar in EDH, but workshop gives basically the same effect as Mana Crypt with a different drawback (only artifacts vs maybe damaging you) that's arguably a lot worse, and Bazaar is good but it's really only ridiculous in a dredge-style deck.

Bottom line is, in decks featuring all of those cards, Sylvan Primordial is at least as likely to end the game (or make it stop being fun for other players) as those other, far more expensive cards. And it's not irrelevant that since SP is so much less expensive, it is in a lot more decks around the world, and therefore is a problem in more games total than those cards you mentioned.


You sound like someone who has never played a game of vintage. It's got little to do with the card, and more to do with how you use them. Obviously using a Mana Drain to counter s 7 mana spell is not that bad, but when you use that 7 mana, plus whatever else you have in play on your next turn to win the game or do something is a very different thing. Card advantage is so much less prevalent in this format than sticking the permanents you have on the battle field. What happens when someone casts tooth and nail? They usually win, what about Omniscience? They usually win, those are big mana spells, that don't require elopements outside of the mana to cast them, cards like Mana drain forgo that necessity of requiring large numbers of permanents to be on the battle field.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-02 11:13 pm 

Joined: 2012-Nov-13 10:03 am
Age: Wyvern
JJackson wrote:
Sylvan Primordial in the vacuum is fair, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. The first time it comes down is usually fine if it is turn 5 or later. Ramping it out early is problematic, but the real issue is that it doesn't come down once. It polarizes games into a clone/reanimate/blink fest that are eye-stabbingly terrible.

Mana Drain is a substantially fairer card than SP in this format. It trades 1-for-1 and gives you a boost to mana for 1 turn. That is powerful, but if you're getting big mana out of it, you're at a part of the game where big plays are happening.

The others are also potentially busted, and if they were more ubiquitous they might get the axe. However, they get their power when they are in decks that are geared in a particular direction. They hit hard and fast, but you aren't going to include one of them if that isn't the style of game you're looking for. It is easy to look at SP, decide that it is a pretty good way to answer artifacts and stuff and just toss it into a green deck. It is sneaky about being a bad thing for the format.


I agree with the last statement you made, and I feel that's a more reasonable conclusion as to why it would be banned, but to say that the other cards don't belong in the same boat is silly to, as I stated in my previous post, look at vintage as a format, or cards that create a huge overwhelming advantage without having to build a collection of permanents on the battlefield.

Honestly Tooth and Nail was a great candidate for banning and didn't get there...


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-02 11:25 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jan-14 2:37 pm
Age: Wyvern
Bazaaretw wrote:
bclare wrote:
Bazaaretw wrote:
I think the ban of this card is ludicrous. It's a fair and powerful card, it's readily available and cheap enough that everyone can get one. No one is calling for the ban of Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad or Mana Crypt, because those cards are powerful and unfair, but they are so hard to acquire that no one complains because no one really plays against them. I'm disappointed at the DH community and council once again.


I have some friends who I play against regularly who have mana crypts and mana drains, and while both of those cards are strong it's rare that they singlehandedly warp a game, the exception being when you can mana drain and use the mana to cast an eldrazi or something really early. Even then, Mana Drain is a reactive spell, and the player casting it needs to have it in hand with open mana at the right time, and you need someone else to be casting something big (and not have a counter of their own). Sylvan Primordial can ruin a game pretty much all on it's own. It's a proactive card and the ETB trigger can be repeated in various ways, whereas Mana Drain is only a one-time effect (maybe twice, but not many decks play a lot of GY recursion of spells). I have no experience playing against Workshop of Bazaar in EDH, but workshop gives basically the same effect as Mana Crypt with a different drawback (only artifacts vs maybe damaging you) that's arguably a lot worse, and Bazaar is good but it's really only ridiculous in a dredge-style deck.

Bottom line is, in decks featuring all of those cards, Sylvan Primordial is at least as likely to end the game (or make it stop being fun for other players) as those other, far more expensive cards. And it's not irrelevant that since SP is so much less expensive, it is in a lot more decks around the world, and therefore is a problem in more games total than those cards you mentioned.


You sound like someone who has never played a game of vintage. It's got little to do with the card, and more to do with how you use them. Obviously using a Mana Drain to counter s 7 mana spell is not that bad, but when you use that 7 mana, plus whatever else you have in play on your next turn to win the game or do something is a very different thing. Card advantage is so much less prevalent in this format than sticking the permanents you have on the battle field. What happens when someone casts tooth and nail? They usually win, what about Omniscience? They usually win, those are big mana spells, that don't require elopements outside of the mana to cast them, cards like Mana drain forgo that necessity of requiring large numbers of permanents to be on the battle field.


I have played vintage. That isn't the format we're talking about here though. Like I said, I know people who have those cards, and I've played against them (in commander, not vintage) and primordial is the most annoying.

I would not be upset if Tooth and Nail got banned. I don't know that it needs to be, and I don't know that SP needed to be, but I think it's a fair call. SP can unintentionally ruin games, and I think the RC is trying to prevent that.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-02 11:36 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
elvis08 wrote:
It is frankly ridiculous that Sylvan Primordial has been banned but Deadeye Navigator is still allowed. Deadeye dodged removal and turns mos cards into a degenerate two card combo. But Sylvan Primordial is clearly the culprit. Pffffft.

DEN only dodge removal if the group does not know how to play it. It makes blink creatures a lot better, but not "most" nor "degenerate". That said I would not shed a tear if DEN was gone, but SP was the worse card for the format as a whole.

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niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 12:14 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Only because it wasn't may ability. DEN, like prophet of Kruphix, has never improved a game for me. I've played a number of games where Sylvan opened things up. EDH players have again shown they can't be trusted to play nice.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 4:34 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
Only because it wasn't may ability


That's not at all what I get from the explanation the RC gave:

Genomancer wrote:
If the card was just a big ramp, or just utility destruction, or just spot land destruction, it would likely be fine but by combining both factors it becomes ubiquitous, frequently overwhelming, and repetitive.


To me it sounds like the problem was that it combined the ability to destroy non-creature permanents (including lands) with insane ramp. Worst case scenario it gives you a 2 land advantage per opponent.

If it was a "may" ability the card could be used in a less douchy manner, but unlike Terastodon which gives your opponent stuff and thus the card itself sometimes forces you to take less, SP promotes taking more than you need. So even if it was "may", you would still have an incentive to ignore the "may" for the land. And lets face it:

niheloim wrote:
EDH players have [...] shown they can't be trusted to play nice

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 4:38 am 

Joined: 2010-Apr-19 12:43 pm
Age: Drake
Sylvan Primordial banned Image


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-03 5:40 am 
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Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
excellent, my work is done here

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We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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