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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 2:47 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Kemev wrote:
Wilkinsbane wrote:
All the other primordials have 'may' or 'up to one' in their text. It has to be some oversight that the sylvan has neither of those.


Yeah, I've wondered for a while if SyPrime was an R&D mistake... maybe they felt like there wasn't enough space for the may/up-to template, or maybe they thought it would be easier to prevent the trigger from going on the stack, or maybe it just had some last minute changes.

Whatever the case, I don't think they intended for it to play the way it does.
The other primordials have may to ensure that the ability can always go onto the stack. It never occurred to them that players might not want to blow up something from one or more opponents with Sylvan.

Honestly, the cycle should have been may all around, and not required that it be from each. FOR EACH yes, but the targeting should have been Terastodon style. If I play Sylvan I want to be able to wreck the one guy if needed...

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 3:10 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Yeah that comment section, my brain lost a few neurons.

Sylvan Primordial is dumb. It's like Primeval Titan wasn't stupid enough, so they let you destroy nonland permanents AND ramp into forests too! The worst part is that it's obligatory to do it, bleh.

(Of course, i am abusing the hell out it at the moment...but that could change soon!)

I use it but our meta is a bit of an arms race meta, heh. :)

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Pre-Modern:
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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 4:12 pm 

Joined: 2013-Feb-01 8:15 am
Age: Drake
Joz wrote:
Wilkinsbane wrote:
All the other primordials have 'may' or 'up to one' in their text. It has to be some oversight that the sylvan has neither of those.

No, Maro just hates EDH.

Naw, he just doesn't understand it. That's how the legend rule gets changed ("It's a drawback! people hate drawbacks!"*), how extort was made ("CI only matters in EDH, I think hybrid should be usable in monocolor decks, and this allows us to make hybrid for EDH!"**), and how cards for EDH are printed ("Our Market Research Shows that EDH Players Really, Really Like Things That You Can Abuse the Heck Out Of."***).

* He practically said this.
** Not a direct quote, but each second and third clauses have been said by him.
*** Definitely not actually said by him.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 4:24 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
EightPointFive wrote:
Joz wrote:
Wilkinsbane wrote:
All the other primordials have 'may' or 'up to one' in their text. It has to be some oversight that the sylvan has neither of those.

No, Maro just hates EDH.

Naw, he just doesn't understand it. That's how the legend rule gets changed ("It's a drawback! people hate drawbacks!"*), how extort was made ("CI only matters in EDH, I think hybrid should be usable in monocolor decks, and this allows us to make hybrid for EDH!"**), and how cards for EDH are printed ("Our Market Research Shows that EDH Players Really, Really Like Things That You Can Abuse the Heck Out Of."***).

* He practically said this.
** Not a direct quote, but each second and third clauses have been said by him.
*** Definitely not actually said by him.

in a nutshell, yup. If I'm not abusin' I ain't usin'

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 5:22 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Wilkinsbane wrote:
All the other primordials have 'may' or 'up to one' in their text. It has to be some oversight that the sylvan has neither of those.
OK but we don't think people who sneak it in on T3 or bounce it would care right? I meant the normal people using it is not the issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 5:44 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Joz wrote:
This is exactly the message I wish WotC would understand.

Don't print shit that you think EDH players want - just let us find and discover gems here and there naturally in sets. Mindclaw Shaman is a good example; Acidic Slime, Terastodon (which also matched the flavor of Zendikar somewhat.) Making cycles of "EDH" cards like the Primordials is bad. The titans weren't even a EDH specific cycle; maybe the Praetors where - but I'm sick of seeing specific cycles we all hate/love that look tailor made for EDH ; and the Primordials are the biggest offender because they fucked up the green one so bad.


QFT

This is probably the best reason to ban SP. EDH has only been going downhill since wotc has noticed it. Yes, this has brought a lot more generals to the mix, but most of the EDH stuff they print is just over engineerd.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-30 7:09 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
24x30cl wrote:
Joz wrote:
This is exactly the message I wish WotC would understand.

Don't print shit that you think EDH players want - just let us find and discover gems here and there naturally in sets. Mindclaw Shaman is a good example; Acidic Slime, Terastodon (which also matched the flavor of Zendikar somewhat.) Making cycles of "EDH" cards like the Primordials is bad. The titans weren't even a EDH specific cycle; maybe the Praetors where - but I'm sick of seeing specific cycles we all hate/love that look tailor made for EDH ; and the Primordials are the biggest offender because they fucked up the green one so bad.


QFT

This is probably the best reason to ban SP. EDH has only been going downhill since wotc has noticed it. Yes, this has brought a lot more generals to the mix, but most of the EDH stuff they print is just over engineerd.



*points at the entierty of the 2013 commander products.

The 2011 series were GREAT - they aren't just end-game cards on their own (not end game (as in...late, but they just don't really end games on their own.) The new ones...in particular...Roon, Proosh, and a few others...you cast them or activate them a few times and the game is about as fun as peeling potatoes. Sylvan Primordial is the child of this sort of thinking by WotC after they noticed that EDH is worth a TON of money to them.....print big, ugly things. Make money. Repeat.

Pretty sure Avacyn wouldn't have been as powerful (or any of the other Innistrad block legendary angels) if WotC didn't notice EDH creeping up in the popularity polls.

Fuck it, lets just ban everything and then form a committee to unban things that are good for the format.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-31 5:23 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-25 1:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Joz wrote:
kaldare wrote:
If nothing else, maybe banning it would send a message to WoTC that generically overpowered "Commander Goodstuff" cards are bad for the format.



This is exactly the message I wish WotC would understand.

Don't print shit that you think EDH players want - just let us find and discover gems here and there naturally in sets. Mindclaw Shaman is a good example; Acidic Slime, Terastodon (which also matched the flavor of Zendikar somewhat.) Making cycles of "EDH" cards like the Primordials is bad. The titans weren't even a EDH specific cycle; maybe the Praetors where - but I'm sick of seeing specific cycles we all hate/love that look tailor made for EDH ; and the Primordials are the biggest offender because they fucked up the green one so bad.

Knowing that they're now releasing a yearly Commander product, this only makes more sense. Fortunately, as kaldare pointed out, Gatecrash was the last set where a card that can be considered "generic and overpowered in multiplayer", so maybe, just maybe, they have learned the lesson (but then they print legends like Prossh, Skyraider of Kher which makes me believe otherwise :facepalm: ).

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-31 5:43 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Maluko wrote:
Knowing that they're now releasing a yearly Commander product, this only makes more sense. Fortunately, as kaldare pointed out, Gatecrash was the last set where a card that can be considered "generic and overpowered in multiplayer", so maybe, just maybe, they have learned the lesson (but then they print legends like Prossh, Skyraider of Kher which makes me believe otherwise :facepalm: ).


Except the commander products are the only outlet for printing new cards they want for Legacy but are too strong or too complicated to be inserted into Standard (TNN, Flusterstorm and pals)

And all sets need "bad" cards that are too slow for constructed which is "perfect" design space for EDH.

The issue isn't so much that they're designing cards with EDH in mind, it's that they're being irresponsible with the designs. If Sy Pri was like the others in that it was optional and generally useless to ramp into, it would have been fine. Making it one of the best ramp spells in the format just breaks it in half. The acidic slime effect, if optional, was fine. DEN being so aggressively costed on the blink effect breaks it in half. The Praetors having positive AND negative effects is a bit excessive on some. Etc...

It's like they've got Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor designing the EDH cards since they're overpriced for constructed anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-31 5:45 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-09 1:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK
Maluko wrote:
Joz wrote:
kaldare wrote:
If nothing else, maybe banning it would send a message to WoTC that generically overpowered "Commander Goodstuff" cards are bad for the format.



This is exactly the message I wish WotC would understand.

Don't print shit that you think EDH players want - just let us find and discover gems here and there naturally in sets. Mindclaw Shaman is a good example; Acidic Slime, Terastodon (which also matched the flavor of Zendikar somewhat.) Making cycles of "EDH" cards like the Primordials is bad. The titans weren't even a EDH specific cycle; maybe the Praetors where - but I'm sick of seeing specific cycles we all hate/love that look tailor made for EDH ; and the Primordials are the biggest offender because they fucked up the green one so bad.

Knowing that they're now releasing a yearly Commander product, this only makes more sense. Fortunately, as kaldare pointed out, Gatecrash was the last set where a card that can be considered "generic and overpowered in multiplayer", so maybe, just maybe, they have learned the lesson (but then they print legends like Prossh, Skyraider of Kher which makes me believe otherwise :facepalm: ).


Why the fear/hate of Prossh? Bit meh IMO as far as dragons go, requires a build around for him and is another generic general kill legend. I wouldn't have considered him overpowered but I haven't seen him in action or anything

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-31 8:42 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
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Maluko wrote:
Knowing that they're now releasing a yearly Commander product, this only makes more sense. Fortunately, as kaldare pointed out, Gatecrash was the last set where a card that can be considered "generic and overpowered in multiplayer", so maybe, just maybe, they have learned the lesson (but then they print legends like Prossh, Skyraider of Kher which makes me believe otherwise :facepalm: ).


Derevi >> Prossh. Just get her out there, tap down his lands, drop a Winter Orb effect and drop more low-cost creatures, an Edric and win. Unsurprisingly (and somewhat unfortunately I guess), Derevi solves a lot of issues around EDH, creating more of her own though...

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Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-31 8:46 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
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CrazyPierre wrote:
Maluko wrote:
Knowing that they're now releasing a yearly Commander product, this only makes more sense. Fortunately, as kaldare pointed out, Gatecrash was the last set where a card that can be considered "generic and overpowered in multiplayer", so maybe, just maybe, they have learned the lesson (but then they print legends like Prossh, Skyraider of Kher which makes me believe otherwise :facepalm: ).


Derevi >> Prossh. Just get her out there, tap down his lands, drop a Winter Orb effect and drop more low-cost creatures, an Edric and win. Unsurprisingly (and somewhat unfortunately I guess), Derevi solves a lot of issues around EDH, creating more of her own though...

On the subject of Derevi, I think I'm taking Glare of Subdual out, because it just feels dirty every time I manage to get it going. I haven't played against Prossh yet, but...Derevi is really, really good.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-31 8:49 am 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
maiden77 wrote:
Why the fear/hate of Prossh? Bit meh IMO as far as dragons go, requires a build around for him and is another generic general kill legend. I wouldn't have considered him overpowered but I haven't seen him in action or anything

On his own he's really powerful. He spits out a huge number of tokens and is a repeatable sac outlet, and is often a 2-shot killer without significant work. He gets pretty degenerate when you start building around him at all. He loves a Living Death, Grave Pact, or Greater Good like nobody's business, and those are all likely in a Jund deck anyway. Throwing Food Chain into the mix makes him into an infinite army of kobolds. He probably justifies Coat of Arms on his own also.

He's not "OMG BAN THIS GUY" broken or anything. He's just extremely powerful and extremely synergistic with the sort of decks that Jund tends to produce, so he's definitely one of the top generals for "fair" EDH.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Jan-31 9:32 am 
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maiden77 wrote:
Why the fear/hate of Prossh? Bit meh IMO as far as dragons go, requires a build around for him and is another generic general kill legend. I wouldn't have considered him overpowered but I haven't seen him in action or anything

He's one of the best Voltron commanders *and* one of the best token commanders, and neither strategy takes much effort to pull off with him. You can easily do both, and still have room for a whole bunch of ramp and good stuff cards, so that your deck is powerful even if Prossh goes gets tucked.

CrazyPierre wrote:
Derevi >> Prossh. Just get her out there, tap down his lands, drop a Winter Orb effect and drop more low-cost creatures, an Edric and win. Unsurprisingly (and somewhat unfortunately I guess), Derevi solves a lot of issues around EDH, creating more of her own though...

That have very little to do with Derevi, and very much to do with Winter Orb.

Segrus wrote:
On the subject of Derevi, I think I'm taking Glare of Subdual out, because it just feels dirty every time I manage to get it going. I haven't played against Prossh yet, but...Derevi is really, really good.

As a Derevi player, I have to say... Derevi requires an entire deck built around him to really do, well, anything relevent at all. With ZERO build around, Prossh still two shots people all day.
I've seen the precon kill people on turn 6. If the freaking precon can do that, imagine what a real Prossh deck can do...
Also, what is overpowered about Glare? I tried it in my deck, and it ended up relegated to the wishboard because it wasn't very good. Now, opposition, on the other hand...

Epsilon wrote:
t's like they've got Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor designing the EDH cards since they're overpriced for constructed anyway.

No... just the yearly commander decks. Seriously, I think they're all designed by one guy in his spare time and then just briefly glanced at by everyone else...

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on gatherer: Sylvan Primordial
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-01 7:03 pm 

Joined: 2009-Oct-08 1:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
EightPointFive wrote:
Naw, he just doesn't understand it. That's how the legend rule gets changed ("It's a drawback! people hate drawbacks!"*), how extort was made ("CI only matters in EDH, I think hybrid should be usable in monocolor decks, and this allows us to make hybrid for EDH!"**), and how cards for EDH are printed ("Our Market Research Shows that EDH Players Really, Really Like Things That You Can Abuse the Heck Out Of."***).

The hand-wringing online Commander players did about the latest legend rule (a change that was prompted by issues with other formats and which hasn't really ruined anything in practice) and especially about extort (a great mechanic, executed correctly, that shouldn't bother anyone except the most nitpicky consistency lovers) does nothing but make other, more reasonable concerns get less airtime by making the community sound unreasonable. (Same thing goes for all the paranoia about Wizards taking over the format, or the complaining when normal Magic rules changes impact the Commander format indirectly.) I'm quite doubtful this format was anything but a tertiary concern with either of these changes.

The third thing is a real, legit problem, but it's also just a normal growing-pain situation that every previous format has gone through. Around Mirrodin R&D decided to start printing Vintage cards, and the immediate result was monstrous, bannable stuff like Trinisphere. It wasn't until they started talking to people like Menendian who could lay out real, concrete ideas about what kinds of Vintage cards were healthy to print that it settled down. Commander's going through the same process now, and as people have mentioned the negative feedback on cards like Sylvan Primordial has already pushed them in a somewhat better direction.


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