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Does Fastbond belong on the Banned List?
Yes, It's too powerful for EDH. 66%  66%  [ 38 ]
No, Fast mana is just part of Magic. Let it be. 34%  34%  [ 20 ]
Total votes : 58
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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-11 2:16 pm 
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Location: Wisconsin
I really don't think Fastbond needs to be banned and honestly I would feel bad if it were. Clearly there wasn't a problem when Crucible was banned. Now, since Crucible has been unbanned, all of the sudden Fastbond becomes a problem. Hardly anyone complained about Crucible being on the banned list and more complained when it got unbanned. Therefore, I am 100% behind putting CoW back on the banned list and leave a classic off of it.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-11 6:19 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
Scout wrote:
The only time I have a problem with Fastbond is when it's chillin' with Strip Mine and Crucible.


My Momir Vig deck used to (not any more) combo out with this using Alluren, Wall of Blossoms/Raven Familiar/3or4 other low cc cantrip critters. I'd draw my deck EOT , Sunder and/or Evaccuate, replay my lands and drop Iron Maiden. I had Exploration and Azuza in to help with just the cantrippyness of the deck, but when I hit the combo (having a tutor general, Dizzy Spell, Mystical Tutor,Long Term Plans, Top, and Abundence helped a bunch), I drew my deck, so unless someone already had dsruption in hand, I could dig for the Fastbond and try to win. I had Loaming Shaman if what I needed was in the 'yard. Infinities, in general, can be abused more than one way. I took that combo out of my deck around theme I took out Staff of Domination from my Jhoira deck (to combo with metal worker) - ages ago. It just isn't cool for anyone, winning or losing, to sit through an infi-win.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-12 12:02 am 
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Quote:
What's left:
Lion's Eye Diamond (almost a black lotus?)
Tinker
Metalworker


Lion's Eye Diamond can be added to the combo list, because of the infinite mana interaction with Auriok Salvagers. Other than that I would say that's a pretty good assessment of the list.

A while ago I was reading something on these forums about banning a particular combo piece because the other pieces can be utilized in other ways. Fastbond seems to be more degenerate in more ways than the rest of the combo. I guess the question should be posed: Is this combo degenerate enough to warrant a ban to stop it? If the combo has to be stopped, then Fastbond should be the piece to get the banstick.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-12 3:54 am 
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I absolutely agree with PNineFTW, the question here is not if Fastbond is too powerful contemplated alone, it is surely not. The question here is if the combo with fastbond and curible, zuran orb, strip mine and so on is too powerful. If it is, fastbond is the thing that should get the axe. There is no other way except to abuse it for an infinite combo. Nobody will play it for the second and third land drop on turn 1. In later turns it is absolutely useless. Nobody plays for example exploration and it doesn't do damage.

So in my opinion there is no need for fastbond in this format and it should go. It just enables infinite combos and nothing else.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-12 7:18 am 

Joined: 2008-Jul-31 11:41 am
Age: Wyvern
Crucible is more fair without Fastbond than Fastbond is without Crucible. Crucible works well with Armageddon effects and stuff but Fastbond allows players to have sick turn 1's that are tough to deal with. I always felt that Crucible was the wrong piece on the Banned list.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-12 7:51 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
xXxBretWeedxXx wrote:
I always felt that Crucible was the wrong piece on the Banned list.


Okay not to be a total bastard but I feel that Crucible is the right piece on the Banned list because it enables both lockdown and infinite while fastbond only enables infinite. Aaaaaaaaaaanyway...... 100% behind rebanning crucible. But as far as "should something else be banned" the answer is YES.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-12 8:43 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
I think Crucible doesn't belong on the ban list. Without Fastbond, it just gives people who aren't playing Green the ability to recover from board sweepers over time.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-12 9:37 am 

Joined: 2008-Jul-31 11:41 am
Age: Wyvern
warble wrote:
xXxBretWeedxXx wrote:
I always felt that Crucible was the wrong piece on the Banned list.


Okay not to be a total bastard but I feel that Crucible is the right piece on the Banned list because it enables both lockdown and infinite while fastbond only enables infinite. Aaaaaaaaaaanyway...... 100% behind rebanning crucible. But as far as "should something else be banned" the answer is YES.


Crucible doesn't allow for lockdown or infinite without Fastbond. Fastbond allows for more without Crucible than Crucible allows for with Fastbond. Plus artifact hosers are more prevalent in EDH than enchantment, though only slightly.

Crucible helps the format more than anything. It hurts land destruction decks, Braids decks, Strip and Wastes. It's a colorless artifact that can fit into any deck and keeps the unfun decks at bay. What does Fastbond ever do that's fair and fun?


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-12 6:00 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
I like the points that all of you are making. My answer to the question if the combo is too powerful and degenerate as a whole, is yes, I think it is. Crucible does not pose the same threat without fastbond but Fastbond in either situation is still broken to some extent with or without Crucible.

xXxBretWeedxXx also makes the good point that Fastbond doesn't add nearly as much to the format that Crucible does in terms of "fair and fun."

Glad people liked my assessment and reasoning of the banned list.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-13 1:08 pm 
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Doj wrote:
There will always be a best combo deck in the format, and it will require a very large banned list to take care of every possible three card combo (and there are plenty of two card combos still in the environment) that has potential.

I find it funny how there was nearly zero mention of fastbond ruining games before crucible was unbanned. The interaction with future sight, LftL, draw 7s etc. had always existed, but all of a sudden a crusade to ban fastbond curtailed the unbanning a card that could enable a three card combo.

I'll be honest, my question to everyone cheering for bannings is do all of you honestly play in such a cutthroat environment that the power of fastbond can even be accurately assessed?

Even if it is the best combo in the format, there will still always be a best combo, but fastbond on its own doesn't break the game. Because EDH isn't a competitive structure, and the act of the inclusion of fastbond into a deck doesn't inherently do a massive amount of damage (citing pre unbanning as my reference, wherein no problems of the card were revealed) there should be no reason to ban it.

In a competitive environment, this format will be broken, unless the banned list take a massive overhaul. There is a lot more fast mana than fastbond in the format, many more combos, but that's part of the allure. I don't think the banned list should cater to the hardcore, because most of the player base isn't hardcore.

If a card in and of itself doesn't break the game, let it be.


This is one of the worst arguments I've ever seen. THERE ARE A GRAND TOTAL OF ZERO MAGIC CARDS THAT BREAK THE GAME BY THEMSELVES. Of course Fastbond doesn't win "by itself." It is the card interactions and metagame that cause unfairness. The entire purpose of Fastbond is to combo out and "do a massive amount of damage." There is no "fun" way to play Fastbond.

The banned list SHOULD cater to the hardcore, because 99% of the time, casual players do not even play with cards on the banned list. If a degenerate combo exists in a format, or if certain cards are extremely versatile, players SHOULD take advantage. Nobody should have to restrain themselves or make sub-optimal plays to make the format "fun."


Fastbond needs to be banned.

(Crucible is GOOD for the format)

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-13 6:37 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
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B1ind Fremen wrote:

Fastbond needs to be banned.

(Crucible is GOOD for the format)


Yay, someone agrees with me.

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