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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-16 11:24 am 
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stu55 wrote:
Here is the thing about everyone running Crucible and it keeping the format from killing it self.


It is like Force of Will in T1. It holds the format together.


What?

Crucible was on the banned list as long as I've played EDH, and I, nor anyone I've played with, saw any problems caused by its absence.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-16 11:56 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-12 7:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
Although EDH is not the same as Vintage or Legacy, I think something can be learned from the banned/restricted lists here. Just a list of some of the cards brought up, so far:

Fastbond - Restricted in Vintage, Banned in Legacy
Crucible of Worlds - Legal in Vintage and Legacy
Stripmine - Restricted in Vintage, Banned in Legacy
Wasteland - Legal in Vintage and Legacy
Fetchlands (Onslaught or otherwise) - Legal in Vintage and Legacy
Zuran Orb - Legal in Vintage and Legacy

Those two cards cause all the problems here and, out of the two in bold, I would choose to ban Stripmine. At least Fastbond does crazy things (that are very EDH in flavor). Stripmine doesn't contribute to EDH is a positive manner and there are other cards that solve the same problems that Stripmine solves.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-16 12:05 pm 
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Scout wrote:
Every deck running a single card isn't a problem? 'Cause in my mind, that points to a totally unhealthy environment. Without Crucible, no one needs to run Crucible. With Crucible, everyone needs to run Crucible.


Not every deck runs Crucible, or should run Crucible. It's not even close. It's not even close to a majority. There are so many cards that are far more ubiquitous than Crucible of Worlds will ever be.



stu55 wrote:
Here is the thing about everyone running Crucible and it keeping the format from killing it self.


It is like Force of Will in T1. It holds the format together.

Crucible by itself is fine, but when added with something (fastbond) that breaks the fundamental rules of the game by a ton (plus, to a higher degree with a higher life total than normal), it becomes something else.

Crucible is fine, Fastbond is not.


Every card in Magic, aside from vanilla creatures, break the rules. Why is Fastbond in particular not fine?

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-16 2:54 pm 

Joined: 2009-Mar-24 2:15 pm
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Quote:
Quote:
stu55 wrote:
Here is the thing about everyone running Crucible and it keeping the format from killing it self.


It is like Force of Will in T1. It holds the format together.

Crucible by itself is fine, but when added with something (fastbond) that breaks the fundamental rules of the game by a ton (plus, to a higher degree with a higher life total than normal), it becomes something else.

Crucible is fine, Fastbond is not.



Every card in Magic, aside from vanilla creatures, break the rules. Why is Fastbond in particular not fine?


no cards in magic actually break the rules of the game... because they are part of the game. rules are broken by players of the game, not the game itself. once a card is printed its effect on the game and how it is played is incorporated into the rules of the game. infinite combos do not break the rules of magic...how could they?

Quote:
So they run Crucible for a week while the guy who built his deck around Crucible realizes, "Hey everyone else can run Crucible too! My deck sucks!" and plays other cards. Plsu Strip Mine/Crucible without Fastbond is a terrible multi-player strategy even if no one packs Crucible. "Look, I can kill 1 persons land every turn. Hey why is everyone attacking me? Can't they tell that I'm barely effecting the game?"

Crucible wouldn't see much play if it weren't for Fastbond. It's mere existence protects the format from itself.


ever heard of Braids, Cabal Minion?? or how about Smokestack? or anything that functions off sacrificing lands, like crop rotation. or how about when mycosynth lattice is in play, then lands can get sacrificed to activate abilities on other cards and then recurred. crucible is not just for use with fastbond.


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Crucible being legal in itself prevents this strategy from being prevalent. ANYONE can run Crucible. If someone packs Strip Mine with their Crucible then everyone else could include Crucible. Eventually that person will take that out of their deck for a strategy that works. Crucible being legal makes land destruction decks that much worse.

Crucible being unbanned is the healthiest thing for this format based on it's utitlity.


yup, it can be run by anyone. but having to run it so that you have a chance against other decks that capitalize on it is a little silly. but i guess its not such a huge deal considering almost every deck has sensei's divining top and sol ring and coalition relic.

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Doj wrote:
This combo isn't significantly better than any of those.



I totally agree. I mean there are smart magic players out there that can find another combo to win turn 3. My deck can do that already.


now we're talkin. not worse than other 2 or 3 card combos.

if this combo gets this much hate now that crucible has been legalized id say look at crucible and not fastbond. i mean, think about it: when crucible was banned no one had a problem with fastbond.. it never even came up as a potential issue. Braids was nasty but not that bad... now with crucible legal fastbond is taking the degeneracy blame and braids is stronger than ever and pissing more people off than ever... so why is fastbond the target?? its power declines tremendously without crucible, but crucible without fastbond can still be incredibly game breaking. even if you pair up fastbond with life from the loam (the second most viable land recursion spell) it is not that overpowering.

I get the impression that most of the people targeting fastbond as the problem card are not fully thinking this through but just reacting either to their own loss to a fastbond/crucible deck or havent played against it ever and just expect it to be so wrong and broken that it cant be dealt with....krosan grip for crying out loud...i mean come on.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-16 9:30 pm 
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BKM: Thanks for your many well-reasoned arguments. Some responses:

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
In any case, "Fastbond is a good card on its own" is a very relevant statement in this debate, but there are two strong counter arguments.

1) Most good combos are composed of nothing but decent cards. Take Earthcraft+Squirrel Nest for example. In my opinion, this is not the best in the format (it's close), but it's a good comparison because Earthcraft has very similar effects to Fastbond. Both cards have strong synergy with many other cards, both cards have powerful mana acceleration abilities. For the sake of argument, I would say that Earthcraft and Fastbond are comparable on power level (Fastbond is more relevant in the early game, Earthcraft is much more powerful by itself late). Earthcraft needs only one other card to go infinite, though, while Fastbond requires at least two.

My perception is that Fastbond’s power level is more than enough to outweigh this competing factor. Apart from the Squirrel Nest combo, I haven’t seen or heard of Earthcraft doing anything terrifying. If I’m mistaken about their relative power levels – and it’s entirely possible that I am – then I would argue for giving it the boot, too. (But on this latter point, I infer that we have different opinions on what is an acceptable power level.)

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
2) The vast majority of Fastbond combo decks include Zuran Orb. Zuran Orb is an absolutely terrible card until you assemble the full combo. When you compare the abilities of Squirrel Nest to ZOrb, it's not even close, especially when you consider the Nest's synergies with other standard Earthcraft cards, like Doubling Season.

Hard to argue with that! If Orb were a combo requirement, I wouldn’t be troubled. However, you can do plenty without this piece of poo. It doesn’t need to be an infinite combo for it to be overpowered – eating 20 life to reuse a fetchland 10 times is one of the less powerful combos, and that’s a tremendous, usually insurmountable advantage in the early turns.

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
I think that you're overestimating the probability that Fastbond is relevant early in the game, though. If you want to give me some examples to work with (i.e. what's the minimum requirement for Fastbond to break a game before turn three, say) I'll be happy to do the math for you, but as a conservative estimate I'd say that the card would only affect the game greatly less than 1% of the time. It's probably even less likely than that.

I humbly submit that this is an incomplete metric for assessing power level. If we’re just calculating the probability of naturally drawing or tutoring for a combo in, say, the first 10 cards, then clearly all 2-card combos dominate 3-card combos (barring sufficient redundancy in the latter’s possible components, of course). But this ignores synergy with other cards, which is appreciably harder to fully capture with combinatorics.

While watching my fantasy basketball team implode on the final night of the season ( :x ), I sleeved up a skeleton of a deck to get rough probability estimates. Here’s a sketch of the finely-tuned instrument of destruction *cough* used for this exercise:

(5c General)

LAND
20 duals
10 bouncelands
5 fetches
4 onslaught cyclers (all but red)
7 lands that do something (Strip Mine, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Nomad Stadium, Barb. Ring, Horizon Canopy, Tolaria West)
8 other mana producers (Gemstone Mine, Exotic Orchard, Reflecting Pool, 3 Island, 1 Forest, 1 Plains)

TUTORS
7 general tutors (Vampiric, Imperial Seal, Enlightened, Demonic, Grim, Cruel, Mystical)
6 narrower tutors (Idyllic, Fabricate, Sylvan Scrying, Crop Rotation, Drift of Phantasms, Dizzy Spell)
Gifts Ungiven
Intuition

OTHER SPELLS
Fastbond
Crucible
Loam
Future Sight/Magus of the Future
E. Witness/Recollect
5 synergistic but otherwise weaker cards (Trade Routes, Zuran Orb, Runed Halo, Horn of Greed, Glacial Chasm)
18 Tortoise Formations (i.e., placeholders)

I goldfished this deck 25 times. Of these, I established a strong combo by turn 2 once (4%), turn 3 four times (16%), turn 4 ten times (40%), and turn 5 twelve times (48%). The remaining 13 times were considered duds, which ranged from clear mulligans to respectable draws but no Fastbond combo by turn 5. One of the combos I counted was just FB+CoW+Fetchland; all others were infinite life or (presumed) Strip Mine lock.

Certainly this could be disrupted, especially if the combo didn’t come together until turn 5. But given the sloppy build and how much deadweight is in the deck – unless my Tortoise Formation tech catches on – I think it’s an informative estimate. This percentage suggests too many ruined EDH games for my liking.

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
If you've got a casual, fun lovin playgroup and you're the types of blokes who don't want to waste time with Seal of Primordium and Pithing Needle, then do you really have to worry about your day being ruined by cutthroat combo players?

My usual group, like many regular groups, has a healthy tradition of self-regulation, tarring and feathering anyone who plays an unwelcome strategy. As is well-established, the banned list is intended to govern the spontaneous EDH games between (possible) strangers at PTs, GPs, out-of-town card shops, etc., etc. I try to engage in such games, so a healthy ban list is important to me so I'm not tarred and feathered myself. :)

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Last edited by That Guy on 2009-Apr-17 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-17 3:27 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
If you've got a casual, fun lovin playgroup and you're the types of blokes who don't want to waste time with Seal of Primordium and Pithing Needle, then do you really have to worry about your day being ruined by cutthroat combo players?


Yes, but you always get that one derranged guy joining the group every so often who's had a hollow, unhappy childhood and just likes seeing everyone else lose. Those are the people I worry about.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-17 7:11 am 

Joined: 2008-Jul-31 11:41 am
Age: Wyvern
Bunny Token wrote:
yup, it can be run by anyone. but having to run it so that you have a chance against other decks that capitalize on it is a little silly. but i guess its not such a huge deal considering almost every deck has sensei's divining top and sol ring and coalition relic.


We have sideboards in EDH now. You don't need to dedicate anything other than a SB slot, and this card provides perfect utility for such a thing.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-17 8:12 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
That Guy wrote:
18 Tortoise Formations (i.e., placeholders)

I goldfished this deck 25 times. Of these, I established a strong combo by turn 2 once (4%), turn 3 four times (16%), turn 4 ten times (40%), and turn 5 twelve times (48%). The remaining 13 times were considered duds, which ranged from clear mulligans to respectable draws but no Fastbond combo by turn 5. One of the combos I counted was just FB+CoW+Fetchland; all others were infinite life or (presumed) Strip Mine lock.


This is the kind of post I love to see. Polite, well reasoned, and backed up by some real data. Sure, that testing has to validated by other people... but the method seems solid. Still now I've been on the fence about Fastbond combo... this is a strong knock towards the ugly side of the fence.

G

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-17 9:25 am 
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That Guy wrote:
18 Tortoise Formations (i.e., placeholders)

I goldfished this deck 25 times. Of these, I established a strong combo by turn 2 once (4%), turn 3 four times (16%), turn 4 ten times (40%), and turn 5 twelve times (48%). The remaining 13 times were considered duds, which ranged from clear mulligans to respectable draws but no Fastbond combo by turn 5. One of the combos I counted was just FB+CoW+Fetchland; all others were infinite life or (presumed) Strip Mine lock.


Basically you are looking at a turn 4-5 combo out and win. Do i consider it "degenerate", NO. Yes these statistics are probably true (though it depends on the build and the colors of the deck), but what you didn't not take for granted in your statistics are the people playing against you. I mean there are alot of early response cards that can totally disrupt the combo. Krosan Grip, Deglamer, any sort of counter spell, or graveyard hate. Not to mention if some one is playing one of these "degenerate decks", the whole point is to combo out and win. They would have to devote the majority of there deck to the combo and the search to facilitate a win. This means if you remove one of there combo pieces with an extract or earwig squad or jesters mask, you can potentially neuter them for the rest of the game. My play group plays at a pretty high level, in fact most of the duels that where won last night ended turn 5 through turn 8. Even when my opponent was assembling the appropriate pieces of his combo, I still had enough time to respond and break it up.

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
If you've got a casual, fun lovin playgroup and you're the types of blokes who don't want to waste time with Seal of Primordium and Pithing Needle, then do you really have to worry about your day being ruined by cutthroat combo players?


I agree. I still believe that instead of out right banning a card, the playgroups can just do local bans. If one of your friends chooses to build this turbo land deck and only plays with that deck, don't allow him to play if you hate losing to this combo so much. I hate loosing and when I find a deck that beats me out right, I will changes to my deck. I strongly believe in the Meta game and sometimes it seems that people want to forget about it all together in EDH because of this broad term associated with the format called "fun." If the combo is not "fun" instead of modifying our decks we attempt and usually succeed at banning combo elements.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-17 9:43 am 
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Oncita wrote:
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
If you've got a casual, fun lovin playgroup and you're the types of blokes who don't want to waste time with Seal of Primordium and Pithing Needle, then do you really have to worry about your day being ruined by cutthroat combo players?


I agree. I still believe that instead of out right banning a card, the playgroups can just do local bans. If one of your friends chooses to build this turbo land deck and only plays with that deck, don't allow him to play


Okay, I'm just going to go out and say it. Your attitude doesn't promote a healthy EDH multiplayer atmosphere. The intent is so that someone can come with whatever deck they want according to the bans list and you want to play with them. If you intend on doing something else with the bans list come out and say it. Your statement can be construed as "I don't care about playing EDH with certain people, and I also intend on using the Banlist as a litmus test to weed out people I have grown up to be socially incompatible with for whatever emotionally stunted reason".

The primary way I deal with combo shits is to beat/disrupt their face in first, the reason I want to fix the banlist is so that the social interactions and gamestate reach a critical mass so that I think my EDH game had some meaning. Now, don't get me wrong, we have a TON of local bans, probably more than any TWO playgroups, but that doesn't mean I think the actual rules can be shat on and inter-playgroup play can be ignored. If there is a card in EDH that makes you not want to play against a deck, or some combo, it's not right to keep the knowledge secret from the community with a local ban. It's like...the card ruins X % of games by turn Y, X2 % of games by turn Y2, X3 % of games by turn Y3. I tell you...it only takes a few ruined games to get a card on OUR local banlist. Not that I don't have decks that fight combo well, but I prefer the creature, wrath, bomb, bomb, bigfatcreature, bomb, wrath gamestyle of EDH...and none of the bombs need to go infinite. Infinite in EDH . . . there should be some big warning sign when you go infinite for 1 green and 3 colorless. It should be like "warning, if you pass through here before turn 3, people will hate you".


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-17 10:33 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-11 8:03 am
Age: Wyvern
im new to this whole edh thing and so far our group is fairly casual. however there are a few players around who are big 250 players that see edh as a veritable combo fest with its lack of a serious banned list. in dealing with these players and their uber decks we have taken an interesting approach, dont play against them. if you know your opponent is going to do something like fastbond/crucible, dont invite them to your game. one player specificly has stated that they play the way they do to show why cards should be banned and why edh is stupid. dont ban the cards, ban the players. if you dont want to do that, make sure that you are playing a crucible as well :mrgreen:


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-17 10:50 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
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The 250 players are just jealous because EDH has staying power. 8)

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 Post subject: Hormones
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-17 10:51 am 
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warble wrote:
If you intend on doing something else with the bans list come out and say it. Your statement can be construed as "I don't care about playing EDH with certain people, and I also intend on using the Banlist as a litmus test to weed out people I have grown up to be socially incompatible with for whatever emotionally stunted reason".


Hormones... Well first and for most, to assume that i have some sort of diabolical scheme to ruin EDH through "degenerate combos" is a false accusation. Also, I do not appreciate any personal attacks to back up your argumentative claim. My whole point was that if you don't like the playing against the degenerate combo deck don't play against it or do some local bannings, which it seems you already do. I am asking for...like many people in this community to not just rashly BAN combos because of some ethereal concept called "fun." There will always be a degenerate combo out there that in a few months some one will bring attention to in the forum and people will cry for a ban.

warble wrote:
But I prefer the creature, wrath, bomb, bomb, bigfatcreature, bomb, wrath gamestyle of EDH...and none of the bombs need to go infinite.


In my opinion your play style is narrow minded and conformist. You are totally disregarding whole entire aspects of the game. Big fatties smash face is one form of playing EDH, though there are so many different strategies in magic, that is why this game is so fun and interesting to play. To just disregard or ban a certain play style you are castrating the format. Fascism to say the least.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-17 10:58 am 
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mohawkdan wrote:
im new to this whole edh thing and so far our group is fairly casual. however there are a few players around who are big 250 players that see edh as a veritable combo fest with its lack of a serious banned list. in dealing with these players and their uber decks we have taken an interesting approach, dont play against them. if you know your opponent is going to do something like fastbond/crucible, dont invite them to your game. one player specificly has stated that they play the way they do to show why cards should be banned and why edh is stupid. dont ban the cards, ban the players. if you dont want to do that, make sure that you are playing a crucible as well :mrgreen:


ROFL....This post made me smile. If you don't like playing against a certain type of deck like "a degenerate combo deck", then either do not play against it or do local bans that is all i was trying to say.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-17 11:12 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
warble wrote:
Your attitude doesn't promote a healthy EDH multiplayer atmosphere. The intent is so that someone can come with whatever deck they want according to the bans list and you want to play with them.


Fundamentally impossible without substantially reducing the size of the cardpool.

A player whose only goal is to win can do so pretty trivially against a bunch of other players who are interested in having a fun, somewhat casual match (where 'fun' is not defined as 'I won'). If you want a competitive banlist, go get the 5-c one. That worked great for them.


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