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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 6:44 am 
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Here's my problem with Fastbond + Crucible: It's really unfun, for the person playing it and certainly for whoever is on the receiving end. Against other mass LD spells, you've got time to assemble a response, since Armageddon costs 4. Fastbond+Crucible can come down as early as turn one. It doesn't really matter if you have Zuran Orb yet or not if you're dropping turn one Fastbond and Crucible. But Fastbond alone doesn't do anything. It's innoffensive. At best, it helps you get over land gluts with Future Sight or lets you power out a fatty a couple turns early. Crucible is what makes Fastbond hiedeously boring.
With Crucible, there are tons of ways to get artifacts back from the graveyard in many colors. With Fastbond, Crucible is the only efficient way to get land back, meaning that without Crucible anything like Strip Mine or Wasteland are still only a one, maybe 2, shot deal. Cartographer is ok with Astral Slide, but it's still no Crucible. And Crucible can be run in any deck. Should any deck not be playing Crucible? Should any deck running green not be running Fastbond+Crucible+Zuran Orb?
The problem is definately not Fastbond here. Fastbond, while decent by itself, really requires a couple other cards to be amazing: Future Sight, Crucible, or Storm Cauldron. Future Sight is amazing, for sure, but it's certainly not ban-worthy. It's just steller card advantage if you get it to stick. I've never even seen anyone talk about Storm Cauldron for EDH, let alone use it, so clearly it's not a bannable powerhouse. Indeed, the only card that makes Fastbond so ridiculously unfun is Crucible. And Crucible doesn't even need Fastbond to be unfun. Your opponent missing land drops? Strip mine, play strip mine, do it again. Then again next turn, and so on. You've got your opponent under a Mindslaver lock, but he blew up your Academy Ruins? Good thing any deck can run Crucible!

Crucible was the only card on the banned list that I thought would never even be considered for unbanning.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 8:51 am 
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That Guy wrote:
I don't dispute that there are better mana accelerants than Fastbond -- but the point is that it is mana acceleration AND a combo piece. If the deck is built to set up the combo with tutors/card draw, sculpting the hand you describe is quite feasible within a few turns, leveraging the acceleration and access to other lesser Fastbond combos.


So your argument is essentially, "Fastbond is a good card on its own," which is a fair point and I don't disagree. I think that you're overestimating the probability that Fastbond is relevant early in the game, though. If you want to give me some examples to work with (i.e. what's the minimum requirement for Fastbond to break a game before turn three, say) I'll be happy to do the math for you, but as a conservative estimate I'd say that the card would only affect the game greatly less than 1% of the time. It's probably even less likely than that.

In any case, "Fastbond is a good card in its own" is a very relevant statement in this debate, but there are two strong counter arguments.

1) Most good combos are composed of nothing but decent cards. Take Earthcraft+Squirrel Nest for example. In my opinion, this is not the best in the format (it's close), but it's a good comparison because Earthcraft has very similar effects to Fastbond. Both cards have strong synergy with many other cards, both cards have powerful mana acceleration abilities. For the sake of argument, I would say that Earthcraft and Fastbond are comparable on power level (Fastbond is more relevant in the early game, Earthcraft is much more powerful by itself late).

Earthcraft needs only one other card to go infinite, though, while Fastbond requires at least two.

2) The vast majority of Fastbond combo decks include Zuran Orb. Zuran Orb is an absolutely terrible card until you assemble the full combo. When you compare the abilities of Squirrel Nest to ZOrb, it's not even close, especially when you consider the Nest's synergies with other standard Earthcraft cards, like Doubling Season.

EDIT: Missed this post:

That Guy wrote:
I agree with your reasoning, and there's no question in my mind that most EDH decks (including many of mine!) devote too few slots to the many powerful graveyard strategies out there.

My fear is an environment where all decks require so many hosers (graveyard and otherwise) that deck variability is severely dampened -- and my concern with the Fastbond combo(s) is that it disproportionately contributes to such an environment.


I would say that this point was reached long ago, we simply don't see it often because EDH isn't played competitively (yet?). If you truely want to win, you just have to play the disruption and that's all there is to it. Pretty much the only way to change that is to ban every broken tutor, from Gifts Ungiven to Imperial Seal.

If you've got a casual, fun lovin playgroup and you're the types of blokes who don't want to waste time with Seal of Primordium and Pithing Needle, then do you really have to worry about your day being ruined by cutthroat combo players?

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 9:25 am 
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Scout wrote:
Here's my problem with Fastbond + Crucible: It's really unfun, for the person playing it and certainly for whoever is on the receiving end. Against other mass LD spells, you've got time to assemble a response, since Armageddon costs 4. Fastbond+Crucible can come down as early as turn one. It doesn't really matter if you have Zuran Orb yet or not if you're dropping turn one Fastbond and Crucible.


This is the post where I quote myself:
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
Here's some math:

You have a 7% chance of any individual card being in your opening hand. You have a 0.02% chance of all three of Crucible, Fastbond and Zuran Orb to be there.

Since you need all four of the other cards in your hand to be land, we'll include that into the equation. Let's say that you're playing an ultra-conservative deck with 50 land, for the sake of argument. At this point, your chances of having your god hand drops to 0.0013%. You'd literally have to play 762 games of EDH to have a 1% chance to gain infinite life on turn one with this combo.

Since you're talking about setting up the Strip lock, obviously replace Orb with Strip Mine. You might also have something like Terramorphic Expanse, a fetch, Wasteland or whatever, so we'll say that your chances are multiplied by nine or ten. That still leaves you with a probability of about one one-hundreth of one percent. First turn combo in EDH is basically a non-issue.

Scout wrote:
But Fastbond alone doesn't do anything. It's innoffensive. At best, it helps you get over land gluts with Future Sight or lets you power out a fatty a couple turns early. Crucible is what makes Fastbond hiedeously boring.
With Crucible, there are tons of ways to get artifacts back from the graveyard in many colors. With Fastbond, Crucible is the only efficient way to get land back, meaning that without Crucible anything like Strip Mine or Wasteland are still only a one, maybe 2, shot deal. Cartographer is ok with Astral Slide, but it's still no Crucible. And Crucible can be run in any deck. Should any deck not be playing Crucible? Should any deck running green not be running Fastbond+Crucible+Zuran Orb?
The problem is definately not Fastbond here. Fastbond, while decent by itself, really requires a couple other cards to be amazing: Future Sight, Crucible, or Storm Cauldron. Future Sight is amazing, for sure, but it's certainly not ban-worthy. It's just steller card advantage if you get it to stick. I've never even seen anyone talk about Storm Cauldron for EDH, let alone use it, so clearly it's not a bannable powerhouse. Indeed, the only card that makes Fastbond so ridiculously unfun is Crucible. And Crucible doesn't even need Fastbond to be unfun. Your opponent missing land drops? Strip mine, play strip mine, do it again. Then again next turn, and so on. You've got your opponent under a Mindslaver lock, but he blew up your Academy Ruins? Good thing any deck can run Crucible!

Crucible was the only card on the banned list that I thought would never even be considered for unbanning.


First of all, in that mind-set (which I share) all combo is boring. It's not Crucible's fault.

You ask, "Should any deck not be playing Crucible?"
I would say that only a fraction of EDH decks should run Crucible; it's a fairly narrow card. Unless you're attempting shenannigans, or if your deck is absolutely packed with fetch lands, Crucible will be sitting in play, dead, the majority of the time. I don't think that anyone would play Crucible of Worlds strictly to protect their Academy Ruins.

You ask, "Should any deck running green not be running Fastbond+Crucible+Zuran Orb?"
The fact is that Zuran Orb is definitively bad, and Fastbond and Crucible are each only situationally good, so only decks that can reliably tutor up all three pieces should run this combo. Do you toss the Urzatron into every one of your decks? It's basically the same question.

Crucible of Worlds is unfun for some people, but some people really love it. Having cards banned in EDH is intrinsically bad, and so any card that doesn't help ruin the format should be allowed for play. Crucible of Worlds does not fit this description, in most people's opinion.

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 Post subject: Bonita says:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 12:47 pm 
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This is my issues with the whole fastbond problem. Mostly the fact that I totally disagree that cards should be on the ban list, but also the fact by removing cards like fastbond you are enabling other decks to be the powerhouse such as braids or zur. Instead of these decks using there search to look for responses against these so called "degenerate combos" a deck like braids will just search instead for his or her combo elements like bitter blossom. If we start removing all combo pieces because we find them "degenerate" and castrate the format so people only play some form of aggro deck that sounds pretty boring to me.

This whole premise of "fun" is totally subjective. Most people seem to twist this term to make there point. In my opinion losing is not fun period. It seems that when people lose to terms they find "un-fun" they immediately consider the combo/ general "degenerate." What I would like to ask the people that lost to this fastbound combo is:

    What type of deck where you playing when you lost to this fastbond combo?
    Are you running any mitigation or graveyard hate?
    Are you changing your deck around do to the meta game?


I agree with Ban Ki-Moon that:
"You have a 7% chance of any individual card being in your opening hand. You have a 0.02% chance of all three of Crucible, Fastbond and Zuran Orb to be there."

With these odds you will have to literally build a deck around just this fastbond combo. If you remove one of the elements from the deck with extract or jester's mask, the player playing turbo lands will be SOL. All in all I believe that this card should not be band.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 3:13 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Okay, let's assume that 15 cards comprise the turboland package, and there are 10 tutors in your deck to find these cards. Basically 1/4 of your deck is part of your combo. By turn 3 you expect to see 10 cards, so 1/10th of your deck. How much of your combo should you see by then? Only 2 1/2 pieces of it. Okay, so you're just at synergy now and you're not combo'd off. But wait you can't have 2 1/2. So you have either 2 or 3 components of your combo. If you have 2, okay you didn't combo off. If you have 3 you did. Since it's an infinite combo requiring 3 mana not even mentioning free fastbond mana you'd expect to go off that turn. So...let's say there's a 8 player game with 3 players playing turboland shenanegans. Turn 3 you have 1 or 2 players going infinite. WAS THAT FUN FOR YOU? K thx.

Now you can debate the size of the turboland package and whether or not horn of green and fastbond goes off and whatever you want but IF these numbers were accurate, would you have a serious issue? Even if it was just fastbond crucible with a sensei's divining top and a fetchland, would you be scared? I would... No matter how many times you take the $#&^ combo it's coming back and it's infinite every time so turn 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 . . . you fight combo monkeys. I thought we didn't fight vs infinite combo monkeys in EDH. . .


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 3:57 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Sep-15 10:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
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Scout wrote:
Crucible is the only efficient way to get land back

Well, aside from Life from the Loam. Still, isn't this a reason to not ban Crucible? It enables entire strategies that would be too weak to even pursue otherwise.

And I wish people would stop saying infinite combo. You start with 40 life, and Fastbond deals 1 damage to you for each land you play. Fastbond+Horn of Greed means you get to draw 40 cards. Fastbond+Crucible+Terramorphic Expanse means you get 40 lands. Fastbond+Crucible+fetch lands means you get 20 lands. And Crucible+Fastbond+Strip Mine lets you kill about 40 lands (probably more, since it should happen over multiple turns). Yes these are large numbers, but 40 (hell even 60) is on no scale equal to infinity. Crucible+Fastbond+Zuran Orb is the only infinite combo I'm aware of, and it doesn't win you the game on its own.


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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 4:32 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-14 12:52 am
Age: Wyvern
Let me remind you all that this is still a format where a Mind Over Matter combined with a Niv Mizzet general can loop for infinite damage (assuming a card with a shuffle back clause is in their deck). An essential 1 card combo. No one really bats an eyelash at this. Yet the three card combo (and only even three when combined with a short list of generals such as Sliver Overlord) causes all the fuss in the world.

Even if you include all of the following tutors in your deck, some of which are pretty sketchy, this combo still doesn't produce over the top goldfishes.

Vampiric Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Gamble
Imperial Seal
Demonic Tutor
Tainted Pact
Cruel Tutor
Grim Tutor
Intiution (Regrowth, Eternal Witness, Combo Piece)
Gifts Ungiven (Regrowth, Ethernal Witness, Combo Piece, Combo Piece)
Long Term Plans
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Consultation
Diabolic Intent

I don't really buy the inevitability route either, because there are many two card combos (and even 1 in the Niv Mizzet deck) that a player can eventually piece together in a long game, this combo isn't significantly better than any of those.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 4:53 pm 
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warble wrote:
Okay, let's assume that 15 cards comprise the turboland package, and there are 10 tutors in your deck to find these cards. Basically 1/4 of your deck is part of your combo. By turn 3 you expect to see 10 cards, so 1/10th of your deck. How much of your combo should you see by then? Only 2 1/2 pieces of it. Okay, so you're just at synergy now and you're not combo'd off. But wait you can't have 2 1/2. So you have either 2 or 3 components of your combo. If you have 2, okay you didn't combo off. If you have 3 you did. Since it's an infinite combo requiring 3 mana not even mentioning free fastbond mana you'd expect to go off that turn. So...let's say there's a 8 player game with 3 players playing turboland shenanegans. Turn 3 you have 1 or 2 players going infinite. WAS THAT FUN FOR YOU? K thx.


Hormones....Well first it seems that your play group plays turbo lands. I mean do you put cards in your deck to counter/ slow the other opponent down from going off. It is called the metagame. It seems that because this format is suppost to be "fun" people forget about the metagame. Since I run a graveyard recursion deck my play group now has a ton of graveyard hate. Personally, I play a deck with 19 search cards which includes land search. Searching your deck in a mono 100 card deck format is part of the game. Also if your opponent is searching for there combo pieces that gives you time to find your mitigation or something to disrupt there "degenerate combo." In my opinion if you lose play again and learn from your mistakes.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 5:03 pm 
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Doj wrote:
This combo isn't significantly better than any of those.


I totally agree. I mean there are smart magic players out there that can find another combo to win turn 3. My deck can do that already.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-16 7:16 am 

Joined: 2008-Jul-31 11:41 am
Age: Wyvern
Scout wrote:
Here's my problem with Fastbond + Crucible: It's really unfun, for the person playing it and certainly for whoever is on the receiving end. Against other mass LD spells, you've got time to assemble a response, since Armageddon costs 4. Fastbond+Crucible can come down as early as turn one. It doesn't really matter if you have Zuran Orb yet or not if you're dropping turn one Fastbond and Crucible. But Fastbond alone doesn't do anything. It's innoffensive. At best, it helps you get over land gluts with Future Sight or lets you power out a fatty a couple turns early. Crucible is what makes Fastbond hiedeously boring.
With Crucible, there are tons of ways to get artifacts back from the graveyard in many colors. With Fastbond, Crucible is the only efficient way to get land back, meaning that without Crucible anything like Strip Mine or Wasteland are still only a one, maybe 2, shot deal. Cartographer is ok with Astral Slide, but it's still no Crucible. And Crucible can be run in any deck. Should any deck not be playing Crucible? Should any deck running green not be running Fastbond+Crucible+Zuran Orb?
The problem is definately not Fastbond here. Fastbond, while decent by itself, really requires a couple other cards to be amazing: Future Sight, Crucible, or Storm Cauldron. Future Sight is amazing, for sure, but it's certainly not ban-worthy. It's just steller card advantage if you get it to stick. I've never even seen anyone talk about Storm Cauldron for EDH, let alone use it, so clearly it's not a bannable powerhouse. Indeed, the only card that makes Fastbond so ridiculously unfun is Crucible. And Crucible doesn't even need Fastbond to be unfun. Your opponent missing land drops? Strip mine, play strip mine, do it again. Then again next turn, and so on. You've got your opponent under a Mindslaver lock, but he blew up your Academy Ruins? Good thing any deck can run Crucible!

Crucible was the only card on the banned list that I thought would never even be considered for unbanning.


Crucible being legal in itself prevents this strategy from being prevalent. ANYONE can run Crucible. If someone packs Strip Mine with their Crucible then everyone else could include Crucible. Eventually that person will take that out of their deck for a strategy that works. Crucible being legal makes land destruction decks that much worse.

Crucible being unbanned is the healthiest thing for this format based on it's utitlity.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-16 8:13 am 
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I know this is subjective and not at all representative of a "typical" group, but:

No one in my playgroup owns a Fastbond (or at least, no one is playing it.)

Crucibles have worked their ways into a few decks for reasons you'd hope. A bit of redundancy over Life from the Loam in dredge based decks, an answer to Desolation Angels and (a lucky topdeck after) Obliterates. Sometimes a way to reuse fetches (or Panoramas). One girl even uses it as a way to get synergy out of Trade Routes and Seismic Assault.

We've had one person try to landlock another with Strip Mines, but all that managed to do was deplete both of those player's resources as you'd expect.

I know this is contrapositive to the statement, but in our group, where Fastbond is "banned"(read: unowned) and Crucible is legal, it's a pretty healthy setup.

Conversely, we've never been too combo-wracked, to begin with, so take it with a grain of salt.

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 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-16 8:59 am 
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xXxBretWeedxXx wrote:
Scout wrote:
Here's my problem with Fastbond + Crucible: It's really unfun, for the person playing it and certainly for whoever is on the receiving end. Against other mass LD spells, you've got time to assemble a response, since Armageddon costs 4. Fastbond+Crucible can come down as early as turn one. It doesn't really matter if you have Zuran Orb yet or not if you're dropping turn one Fastbond and Crucible. But Fastbond alone doesn't do anything. It's innoffensive. At best, it helps you get over land gluts with Future Sight or lets you power out a fatty a couple turns early. Crucible is what makes Fastbond hiedeously boring.
With Crucible, there are tons of ways to get artifacts back from the graveyard in many colors. With Fastbond, Crucible is the only efficient way to get land back, meaning that without Crucible anything like Strip Mine or Wasteland are still only a one, maybe 2, shot deal. Cartographer is ok with Astral Slide, but it's still no Crucible. And Crucible can be run in any deck. Should any deck not be playing Crucible? Should any deck running green not be running Fastbond+Crucible+Zuran Orb?
The problem is definately not Fastbond here. Fastbond, while decent by itself, really requires a couple other cards to be amazing: Future Sight, Crucible, or Storm Cauldron. Future Sight is amazing, for sure, but it's certainly not ban-worthy. It's just steller card advantage if you get it to stick. I've never even seen anyone talk about Storm Cauldron for EDH, let alone use it, so clearly it's not a bannable powerhouse. Indeed, the only card that makes Fastbond so ridiculously unfun is Crucible. And Crucible doesn't even need Fastbond to be unfun. Your opponent missing land drops? Strip mine, play strip mine, do it again. Then again next turn, and so on. You've got your opponent under a Mindslaver lock, but he blew up your Academy Ruins? Good thing any deck can run Crucible!

Crucible was the only card on the banned list that I thought would never even be considered for unbanning.


Crucible being legal in itself prevents this strategy from being prevalent. ANYONE can run Crucible. If someone packs Strip Mine with their Crucible then everyone else could include Crucible. Eventually that person will take that out of their deck for a strategy that works. Crucible being legal makes land destruction decks that much worse.

Crucible being unbanned is the healthiest thing for this format based on it's utitlity.


Every deck running a single card isn't a problem? 'Cause in my mind, that points to a totally unhealthy environment. Without Crucible, no one needs to run Crucible. With Crucible, everyone needs to run Crucible.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-16 9:34 am 

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Age: Wyvern
Scout wrote:
Every deck running a single card isn't a problem? 'Cause in my mind, that points to a totally unhealthy environment. Without Crucible, no one needs to run Crucible. With Crucible, everyone needs to run Crucible.


So they run Crucible for a week while the guy who built his deck around Crucible realizes, "Hey everyone else can run Crucible too! My deck sucks!" and plays other cards. Plsu Strip Mine/Crucible without Fastbond is a terrible multi-player strategy even if no one packs Crucible. "Look, I can kill 1 persons land every turn. Hey why is everyone attacking me? Can't they tell that I'm barely effecting the game?"

Crucible wouldn't see much play if it weren't for Fastbond. It's mere existence protects the format from itself.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-16 10:17 am 

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Here is the thing about everyone running Crucible and it keeping the format from killing it self.


It is like Force of Will in T1. It holds the format together.

Crucible by itself is fine, but when added with something (fastbond) that breaks the fundamental rules of the game by a ton (plus, to a higher degree with a higher life total than normal), it becomes something else.

Crucible is fine, Fastbond is not.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-16 10:43 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I always wondered why Crucible was banned. Yes, you can do degenerate things with it and other cards, but to me its exactly what people should look for in an excellent EDH card: incremental card advantage, protection from random frustrating situations, and solid recursion. I wouldn't run it in every deck I play, but I'll definitely run it in a good number of them. I don't see that as a problem. We have a thread devoted to EDH staples for a reason.

Fastbond on the other hand, is pretty much used to combo out. I wouldn't have a huge issue with seeing it disappear, but I don't think it necessarily needs to go.

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