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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-13 9:23 am 
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Graveyard hate screws all of this over. I've had people concede because I landed a Withered Wretch. An early Tormod's Crypt also bought me enough time because the opponent needed to find extra ways to go nuts and play around the Crypt at the same time.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-13 1:36 pm 
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Doraemon wrote:
Graveyard hate screws all of this over. I've had people concede because I landed a Withered Wretch. An early Tormod's Crypt also bought me enough time because the opponent needed to find extra ways to go nuts and play around the Crypt at the same time.


I agree with this statement but not your underlying implication. Unlike most graveyard shenanigans, which involve gradual card advantage in the later game, obnoxious Fastbond combos can be assembled very early in the game. Thus, to reliably have an answer, you would need a high density of ways to stop it (e.g., graveyard hate). If all EDH decks are warped either to incorporate these combos or ways to reliably stop it, we lose much of the diversity that makes EDH interesting.

On an unrelated note, congrats on the posting milestone! I don't always agree with you, but I do appreciate your frequent contributions to the online EDH community. :D

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-13 3:30 pm 
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yawg07 wrote:
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Gifts Ungiven
Intuition
Card X
Card Y
Card Z
Regrowth
Eternal Witness
Recollect

You will have a hard time losing running that 10-card suite.
It is ENTIRELY too easy to put X/Y/Z together.


You can say that about literally every combo.

Can someone please post a well-reasoned paragraph or two about why Crucible combo is more dangerous than any other combo in the format?


P.S. Thank you very much to trevor for attempting this, although this abrupt outrage is 100% about Fastbond's interaction with Crucible, to be honest. I don't think that the other interactions can be cited very reasonably, since they've existed in EDH since the very beginning, and Fastbond only rarely appeared on posted lists. If you feel that this P.S. is wrong, feel free to rebut.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-13 4:16 pm 
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Ban Ki-moon wrote:
Can someone please post a well-reasoned paragraph or two about why Crucible combo is more dangerous than any other combo in the format?

P.S. Thank you very much to trevor for attempting this, although this abrupt outrage is 100% about Fastbond's interaction with Crucible, to be honest. I don't think that the other interactions can be cited very reasonably, since they've existed in EDH since the very beginning, and Fastbond only rarely appeared on posted lists. If you feel that this P.S. is wrong, feel free to rebut.


My own personal reasoning is that Fastbond enables assembling the other combo pieces and helps protect the combo, which is unique among the prevalent combos I can think of. Specifically, the early mana boost means it's then easier to cast card draw or tutoring effects to find the other parts; it's easier to protect the combo pieces with counterspells, etc.; and your opponents have fewer chances to draw/deploy answers. Moreover, while the other combos Trevor lists may not be as nasty as Fastbond/Crucible, I think his list reinforces the point that it doesn't take much in conjunction with Fastbond for a focused deck to get a quick leg up in getting the lock online.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-14 12:10 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-05 5:20 am
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Quote:
I guess in order to abuse Fastbond, you'd probably need to have Life from the Loam or Crucible as well. And Zuran Orb.


I assume you've never heard of Storm Cauldron.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-14 1:45 am 

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blackwing wrote:
Quote:
I guess in order to abuse Fastbond, you'd probably need to have Life from the Loam or Crucible as well. And Zuran Orb.


I assume you've never heard of Storm Cauldron.


I've heard of it. I just don't think it's a very good card.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-14 2:21 am 

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cmb_master wrote:
blackwing wrote:
Quote:
I guess in order to abuse Fastbond, you'd probably need to have Life from the Loam or Crucible as well. And Zuran Orb.


I assume you've never heard of Storm Cauldron.


I've heard of it. I just don't think it's a very good card.


Just throwing out another card that fastbond can easily abuse besides Crucile, Life from the Loam and Zuran Orb.

Anyhow, I would like to see what's going to happen to Fastbond in this format. If I had to guess, I'd say it's going to go the way of tinker, though I wouldn't mind seeing it stay legal.

Random side note on Storm Cauldron: if you use it right (or wrong), it's an amusing way to get people to hate you out of pretty much every game for a few days.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-14 8:16 am 
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@ That Guy: I think by "not enough graveyard hate" I mean that most decks I've seen run a random one or two cards whereas in some decks I run 5 - 6 (ie. not a dedicated graveyard hate strategy) and therefore draws the graveyard hate cards on a much more consistent basis. The graveyard recursion players slow down and suddenly I become an asset to the other players who were stressed out because they couldn't stop the graveyard shenanigans. I feel that there are so many strategies involving graveyards that plenty of solutions for these strategies should be played.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-14 9:07 am 
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That Guy wrote:
My own personal reasoning is that Fastbond enables assembling the other combo pieces and helps protect the combo, which is unique among the prevalent combos I can think of. Specifically, the early mana boost means it's then easier to cast card draw or tutoring effects to find the other parts; it's easier to protect the combo pieces with counterspells, etc.; and your opponents have fewer chances to draw/deploy answers. Moreover, while the other combos Trevor lists may not be as nasty as Fastbond/Crucible, I think his list reinforces the point that it doesn't take much in conjunction with Fastbond for a focused deck to get a quick leg up in getting the lock online.


Fastbond's acceleration is significantly worse (for an average hand) than, say, Sol Ring, or even Llanowar Elves or a signet. You get to dump around 3 or 4 land into play on turn one, but then your development halts for the next few turns. A guy with Sol Ring will have a similar amount of mana in turn one and two, but he gets to continue making lands throughout the first turns of the game. Using Fastbond significantly in the early game tends to leave its controller depleted of resources.

For Fastbond to be able to help assemble and protect the combo, you require Fastbond, several lands, a tutor, as well as sufficient disruption cards. This is an extremely unlikely hand.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-14 2:01 pm 
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Ban Ki-moon wrote:
Fastbond's acceleration is significantly worse (for an average hand) than, say, Sol Ring, or even Llanowar Elves or a signet. You get to dump around 3 or 4 land into play on turn one, but then your development halts for the next few turns. A guy with Sol Ring will have a similar amount of mana in turn one and two, but he gets to continue making lands throughout the first turns of the game. Using Fastbond significantly in the early game tends to leave its controller depleted of resources.

For Fastbond to be able to help assemble and protect the combo, you require Fastbond, several lands, a tutor, as well as sufficient disruption cards. This is an extremely unlikely hand.


I don't dispute that there are better mana accelerants than Fastbond -- but the point is that it is mana acceleration AND a combo piece. If the deck is built to set up the combo with tutors/card draw, sculpting the hand you describe is quite feasible within a few turns, leveraging the acceleration and access to other lesser Fastbond combos.

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Last edited by That Guy on 2009-Apr-14 3:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-14 2:29 pm 
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Doraemon wrote:
@ That Guy: I think by "not enough graveyard hate" I mean that most decks I've seen run a random one or two cards whereas in some decks I run 5 - 6 (ie. not a dedicated graveyard hate strategy) and therefore draws the graveyard hate cards on a much more consistent basis. The graveyard recursion players slow down and suddenly I become an asset to the other players who were stressed out because they couldn't stop the graveyard shenanigans. I feel that there are so many strategies involving graveyards that plenty of solutions for these strategies should be played.


I agree with your reasoning, and there's no question in my mind that most EDH decks (including many of mine!) devote too few slots to the many powerful graveyard strategies out there.

My fear is an environment where all decks require so many hosers (graveyard and otherwise) that deck variability is severely dampened -- and my concern with the Fastbond combo(s) is that it disproportionately contributes to such an environment.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-14 4:39 pm 
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[quote="That Guy]

My fear is an environment where all decks require so many hosers (graveyard and otherwise) that deck variability is severely dampened -- and my concern with the Fastbond combo(s) is that it disproportionately contributes to such an environment.[/quote]

This is my fear also. Well said.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-14 7:36 pm 
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That Guy wrote:
I don't dispute that there are better mana accelerants than Fastbond -- but the point is that it is mana acceleration AND a combo piece. If the deck is built to set up the combo with tutors/card draw, sculpting the hand you describe is quite feasible within a few turns, leveraging the acceleration and access to other lesser Fastbond combos.


Hey, that's like Grim Monolith.

Overall, Fastbond is not that broken. I agree with Ban-Ki Moon that the major problem here just comes from the unbanning of Crucible. Because seriously, what other cards really combo with it?
Storm Cauldron is close, but damn that's a lot of damage for a little effect.

It's a good card, but it's not bah-roken.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-14 9:03 pm 
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That Guy wrote:
My fear is an environment where all decks require so many hosers (graveyard and otherwise) that deck variability is severely dampened -- and my concern with the Fastbond combo(s) is that it disproportionately contributes to such an environment.


That depends. I've utilized the strategy of "let other people deal with what's threatening to you" very often. This frees up many slots in decks that would otherwise have been devoted to the "required" cards (eg. a couple slots for graveyard hate, a couple slots for removal, etc.). Of course, in return, I am aware that my deck would not be able to hate graveyards and therefore won't complain. The complainers are usually the ones who are running one or two graveyard hate cards and not draw them.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-15 12:41 am 
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I've been discussing this with my playgroup. I tend to agree with Ban Ki Moon, in that I don't think fastbond+crucible+stripmine is the most powerful combo in the format. It's good, but like tier 1.5-2. I usually rank combos by how easy they are to set up (number or required cards, is one card a general), do they win the game immediately, and how easy the combo is to disrupt. Another key factor might be how good the pieces are outside the combo.

The main argument I've been hearing about fastbond+crucible is that it can be run in any deck that runs green. I think this is a different argument than the power level of the combo, relating more to how prevalent it will be. I think this combo is boring enough that it won't be abused.


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