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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-08 9:07 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I wouldn't have if it wasn't for the second line, esp. "busty lady jumping out of an overly large cake". Sounded like massive sarcasm to me (the exaggeration).

You guys are probably right. I dunno...I'd like to hear from Oncita myself.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-09 12:05 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Doraemon wrote:
I wouldn't have if it wasn't for the second line, esp. "busty lady jumping out of an overly large cake". Sounded like massive sarcasm to me (the exaggeration).

You guys are probably right. I dunno...I'd like to hear from Oncita myself.


That was pretty bad. It didn't sound like sarcasm to me. Oh well....

Back on topic. Fastbond is probably the card I'm the most surprised isn't banned yet. The card just screams BROKEN!!! The life loss is so irrelevant in this format.It's cheap and it has an almost immediate effect when it hits the table giving very little time for answering. At least with crucible (which I'm happy got unbanned) you have time to come up with an answer before it truly goes off. I say leave crucible and do away with fastbond.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-09 12:49 pm 
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I agree that with Crucible unbanned Fastbond needs to be seriously considered for banning.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-09 12:55 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
Yeah Vorosh just got insanely better with Crucible unbanned.

Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Gifts Ungiven
Intuition
Crucible of Worlds
Fastbond
Strip Mine
Wasteland
Zuran Orb
Regrowth
Eternal Witness
Recollect

You will have a hard time losing running that 12-card suite.
It is ENTIRELY too easy to put Crucible/Fastbond/Strip together.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-09 1:42 pm 
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Location: Portland, OR
Serious question: On what turn, on average, do people assemble their Crucible+Fastbond combos?


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-09 2:14 pm 
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If there is enough tutor/artifact mana it is easy to do with counter-backup around turn 4 or so.
I realize a lot can happen in that time, but usually nothing very big, considering it is the early 3 turns of a multiplayer game.
Most people are going "land, go" during that time.

If you build your deck with its main purpose being Crucible/Fastbond/Strip, it is really simple to pull off.
The argument with "It's 100-card highlander! How can you do it consistently?" is really lame. You can build any deck to do anything every time.

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 Post subject: Re: 700 posts
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-09 4:23 pm 
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Doraemon wrote:

Is there a problem?


No there is absolutely no problem. I was reading the thread and saw that you had 700 posts, so I decided to congratulate you. It was not an attack on your posts, you just have the highest post number i have seen on the forums. You don't need to get so up tight about a complement, maybe not everyone is trying to attack you.

Cheers

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-09 7:56 pm 
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Location: Rittman, OH USA
AW MAN! I'm pretty close to 700, too!

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 Post subject: Re: 700 posts
AgePosted: 2009-Apr-09 8:06 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-09 1:32 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Oncita wrote:
Doraemon wrote:

Is there a problem?


No there is absolutely no problem. I was reading the thread and saw that you had 700 posts, so I decided to congratulate you. It was not an attack on your posts, you just have the highest post number i have seen on the forums. You don't need to get so up tight about a complement, maybe not everyone is trying to attack you.

Cheers


Alright, I apologize for being so uptight. Wasn't feeling very good that day, but I'm all right now. I've been attacked before for posting "useless" stuff so since then I've made sure that all my posts since were constructive in some way. No hard feelings. :D

Although... Philato has more posts than me =P (go to member list and you can sort by total posts)

yawg, i'll rmb to congratulate you when you hit 700 :P

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-09 10:06 pm 

Joined: 2009-Mar-10 4:29 pm
Age: Drake
stay on topic please, this situation needs resolved


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 4:16 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Just wanted to say this before I "get back on topic": Is this really a competition? I mean, I like posting and contributing to the forum, but people shouldn't be posting a lot just to get their "number of posts" up or whatever. I post a lot because I love this forum and reading, responding and learning from the rest of you about how to build better EDH decks.

Back on topic. Ultimately its up the the EDH rules commitee to "solve" problem. The most we can do is yell out in despair about what needs to go from this format. I think Aaron Forscythe made a similar point at one of the pro tours about how WOTC determines when a card is too powerful for type 2 or whatever. As for the EDH community, that's about all we can do aside from bringing countless examples about how overpowered this one mana enchantment is.

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1] Horde of Notions (Blink)
2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
5] Omnath, Locus of Mana (Big Green Men)
6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
8] Rafiq of the Many (One Man, Alone)
9] Reaper King (Taste the EPIC!)
10] Uril, the Miststalker (Dark Rafiq)


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 7:59 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
What people have said about Fastbond is not falling on deaf ears. It is garnering a lot of attention from the rules committee.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-10 9:56 am 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't feel like posts saying things like, "my friend won with Fastbond on 3," are any real reflection of the card's true degeneracy. Yes, you can get a God hand with Fastbond. But there's no 1 card that, when teamed up with Fastbond, automatically wins the game without the potential for a stopping point mid-combo. Those "God Hands" seem to always involve:
(A) Sufficient lands to begin with
(B) Fastbond
(C) A card that combos with Fastbond
(D) Another card that combos with Fastbond as well as card (C)

The only exception is when the Fastbond player get's lucky with their Horn of Greed/Future Sight/Magus of the Future/Recycle/Null Profusion, and subsequently draws into what they need.

Therefore, I don't think that Fastbond's speed is truly the problem (but it's certainly not helping). What Fastbond is guilty of is being extremely easy to combo with. I feel like that's the only thing that makes it ban worthy. The combos with Fastbond win with more total combo pieces than most combos out there. There are already lots of 2 card "I win" combos. However, Fastbond make up for it in consistency, because all you have to do is draw Fasbond + something else + land to start rolling

I'm going to list cards that Fastbond combos with, or that you should probably run if you're playing a Fastbond deck. Feel free to add more if you want. I'm not going to exclude tutors because those are a given. I'm not including expensive "win" spells (like Time Stretch) as well as cards that have effects based on the number of lands you have in play (like Beacon of Creation) because the way you win after the fact isn't as important as setting it up.

-Directly Combos With it
Crucible of Worlds
Life from the Loam
Horn of Greed
Recycle/Null Profusion
Future Sight/Magus of the Future
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Seed the Land
Vinelasher Kudzu
Stone-Seeder Heirophant
Cloudstone Curio
Sunder
Worldpurge
Upheaval - banned
Time Spiral/Time Twister/Wheel of Fortune/Memory Jar/Windfall/etc...

-The life gain/damage prevention to go with it
Zuran Orb - also combos with Crucible and Loam
Words of Worship - with Horn of Greed
Lifegift
Purity
Glacial Chasm
Urza's Armor

Not every card has explosive power with Fastbond. Some need another card to "go off". These kind of cards simply have incidental synergy with Fastbond, but when teamed up with Fastbond alone, don't explode yet.

-Cards that have incidental synergy
Trade Routes - good with any land that taps for more than 1 mana, and/or Horn of Greed
Limited Resources - banned, and thank God it is
Plainshift Lairs
Ravnica Bounce Lands
Visions Bounce Lands
Undiscovered Paradise
Thawing Glaciers
Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
Karakas - banned

The Crucible/Loam with Fastbond issue seems to be the one people are having the most problems with. Certain lands can go off with teamed up with one of those 2 cards, and a Fastbond.

-The Crucible/Loam + Fastbond "sac" lands (that don't come into play tapped)
Strip Mine
Wasteland
Ghost Quarter
Onslaught Fetches
Shards Panoramas
Teramorpic Expanse
Petrified Field
City of Traitors
Crystal Vein
Archaeological Dig
Horizon Canopy
Cephalid Coliseum
Barbarian Ring
Nomad Stadium
Walk of Aeons and Zuran Orb - Not a land, but you get the point

I hope I've illustrated that Fastbond combos with A LOT of cards.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-12 6:02 pm 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
I somewhat agree about Fastbond.

I recently built a list just to abuse every powerful card I could think of + utility. It did not include Fastbond.

I guess in order to abuse Fastbond, you'd probably need to have Life from the Loam or Crucible as well. And Zuran Orb. Then, you can proceed to drawing your entire deck with Horizon Canopy and Cephalid Coliseum. Gain infinite life with Zuran Orb, then kill everyone in one turn with Barbarian Ring. However, in every single one of those iterations, you can be screwed over by an instant speed graveyard removal effect in response to your land effect or sacrificing to your Zuran Orb.

I guess with the new environment of having Crucible in the format warps it so that Strip Mine and Wasteland becomes even greater must-have's in your opening hand. Basically, I make a strong 1-drop (Nimble Mongoose?) and then begin to Fastbond, Loam + Strip Mine you. You lose. (This could be a new strategy folks. Nimble Mongoose LD)

Again, Fastbond is powerful, but without these other support cards, who cares? It's very specific as to what it asks for. If you don't like it, you can still complain, but I doubt there will be any action taken against this card, seeing that the card itself is very narrow. A better course of action to take is to make use of low casting disruption spells. Spells such as Force Spike, Duress, Oxidize, Ancient Grudge, Faerie Macabre, etc. Yes, some of these seem suboptimal, but there are the proper tools to fight against this strategy, and they are decent in 1v1 format, where this Fastbond strategy is most powerful.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-13 6:13 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
cmb_master wrote:
the card itself is very narrow.
...1v1 format, where this Fastbond strategy is most powerful.


Wrong and wrong. 1) the card works whenever you draw cards. Draw 7 drop all your land. That's really @#$&^ different than a "narrow card"

2) As for "the fastbond strategy is most powerful in 1v1" I beg to dispute. In fact, it's far more brutal to be in an infinite combo situation with 5+ people where everyone is playing a fastbond crucible combo in their deck. Nobody brought a disruption deck because you can't disrupt 5 combos so everyone's racing. That sux. So no, it's not only ruining 1v1 games. And it's definitely not only "going off" in 1v1 games. You can think of this like when you could flash in hulk for the win. Sure, not every playgroup did, but the ones who flashed in hulk were having games end suddenly with little to no interaction outside of countermagic and small disruption. That wasn't the intent of the EDH design, it was not intended to have infinite combo bastards able to consistently go off on turn 3-4, and to be able to toss out 3-4 infinite combos over the successive turns even if the first one is countered since this is green and you're not using a resource that's a "one shot" sort of thing that would RFG itself or be less usable later like tinker. It's just a question of how hard you want people to have to fight infinites when they hop playgroups.

Oh and some sort of thread merging on the fastbond crucible topics would be nice.


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