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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-21 6:42 pm 
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Anselan wrote:
Ghost Quarter solves all the same problems as Strip Mine, but it's not degenerate.


Recurring Ghost Quarter is just as bad as recurring Strip Mine, Wasteland, etc. The problem is Fastbond lets you recur those cards as many times as you want in a single turn. They are powerful effects, true, but as has been pointed out they are balancing factors that counteract powerful lands (Mishra's Workshop, Tolarian Academy, Maze of Ith, etc) that would be very difficult for colors without access to red (and green or black to a lesser degree).

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-21 7:01 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-12 7:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
In my first post on here, I had highlighted that BOTH Fastbond and Strip Mine are ridiculous. They are both banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage.

I would not want either legal. However, I disagree that Ghost Quarter (or Wasteland, for that matter) is as powerful as Strip Mine in this context.

Sure, you can recur Ghost Quarter many times in one turn. But you lose life as you replay it and they keep getting more lands.

Wasteland has the non-basic restriction, so it is also not nearly as powerful.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-21 7:14 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Anselan wrote:
In my first post on here, I had highlighted that BOTH Fastbond and Strip Mine are ridiculous. They are both banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage.

I would not want either legal. However, I disagree that Ghost Quarter (or Wasteland, for that matter) is as powerful as Strip Mine in this context.

Sure, you can recur Ghost Quarter many times in one turn. But you lose life as you replay it and they keep getting more lands.

Wasteland has the non-basic restriction, so it is also not nearly as powerful.


Except for the fact that some people do attempt to build a true highlander EDH when possible and only play 1 of each basic and unless you're playing a mono-color opponent, Wasteland is just as powerful as Strip Mine. I know the only reason I put more than 3 basics in a 3 color deck is if I happen to be running green basic land searchers.

Also, this isn't Legacy. This is EDH, and it's a completely different format. Every color needs access to non-basic hate to keep the format healthy simply because of the ridiculousness of some of the nonbasic lands that have been printed. Strip Mine really isn't that much more powerful than Wasteland in EDH - giving up a mana source just to destroy one land is huge card disadvantage. The only time you should actually be using them to destroy lands is when there's something like an Academy or Maze of Ith on the table being abused.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-21 7:48 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
First of all, using any of the "canibal" lands on another land is never card disadvantage, and is always a 1 for 1 trade.

Second, stating that you can repeat Ghost Quarter or Strip Mine "as many times as you want in a single turn" is ridiculous. You still need 1) Fastbond, 2) Crucible, 3) a life gain source (which have been listed previously, so I won't bother) and finally the 4) Strip Mine/Ghost Quarter. If you want to start talking about how many different ways you can win with 4 cards in this game, that post would go on for hundreds, if not thousands, of pages. When you can win with as few as 2 cards (1 + a General in many cases), 4 card combos ARE NOT relevant, nor is that argument to this discussion.

Finally, I liked the point about tutors and playing the same game every time. In the pure spirit of highlander, tutors do seem to detract from "one of'ness" that this game was founded upon. Even cards that are similar tend to have subtle differences (with a few exceptions of course). But if you really do play the 10+ tutor deck, and just try to get as close as possible to the same lot of cards every game, I feel like you're missing the point. On the other hand, many people use their tutors to find a very narrow answer for a card their metagame is playing (like a card they sided in, for instance) and therefore they're kind of a necessary evil.

I do not think that Wizards will continue to print tutors of the quality level even close to Demonic tutor (the same text box out of Odyssey costs twice as much). However, they could easily keep printing cards like Vampiric Tutor because, quite frankly, the cards aren't over-budget in their casting cost vs effect. It may seem hypocritical when Demonic is truely the better tutor, but I would have no problem with some of the "card disadvantage" tutors leaving the format, for the sake of controlling tutor saturation. These cards are, in the long run, going to always be the cards that make a combo deck run, if only because of the sheer number of them.

Hypothetically, the tutor saturation situation will only get worse as the game of Magic get's older. Would it be possible to come up with a threshold for how many "good" tutors should be in this format before they start to detract from the format for one reason or another, similar to what the 250 players have done?


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-21 8:19 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
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trevor wrote:
You still need 1) Fastbond, 2) Crucible, 3) a life gain source (which have been listed previously, so I won't bother) and finally the 4) Strip Mine/Ghost Quarter.


You don't need a lifegain source unless your opponent has more than 40 lands in play.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-22 4:50 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
trevor wrote:
First of all, using any of the "canibal" lands on another land is never card disadvantage, and is always a 1 for 1 trade.


Okay, I should have been more specific. In a multiplayer game, giving up one of your lands to get rid of an opponent's land is virtual card disadvantage because you traded 1 for 1 when you have to trade 1 for X for card parity, where X is the number of opponents you're playing against. Thus, I play them, but I don't sac them unless I'm hitting something important.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-22 11:04 am 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
You need a life gain source to play out lands "as many times as you want in a turn" which is what was said. It's also not unrealistic to assume, when generals are announced at the beginning of a trusted game, that people you play with know what your deck does. As people have said before, combo should be and is focussed when players know it is coming. Therefore it's not unrealistic to assume that the fastbond player (beyond a perfect goldfish opening hand) is down some life. With my own fastbond deck, I pack several life gain/damage prevention effects in the deck under the assumption that I won't have enough life to get the job done without help.

I get what you're saying about card parity, Artos. I also completely agree that these cards are situational only *steps onto soap box*. But under that logic even cards like Dismiss and Cryptic Command are card disadvantage if there's more than a couple players you're playing against. The reality is that you're up a card and the relevant player at that moment is down a card. After that, the game shifts, and who is "up cards" would have to be evaluated again. But unlike control vs control mirrors in 1v1, this isn't necessarily how games are won in multiplayer.

Let me give some examples: I used to be under the opinion that Jace Beleran's +2 ability should never be used in mutli-player because of the card parity, turning him into an overated concentrate. I felt the same way about counterspells, because if you tried to counter everything, your hand would be empty too quickly. The reality is that card disadvantage, beyond a hypothetical and virtual situation, just doesn't work the same way in multiplayer magic. If it did, you'd be so far behind when your 5+ opponents drew there opening hand (for 35 total cards) and you only had 7, that it would be over before the game even started. Put simply, not all of your cards will be directly trading with all of those cards *steps down from soap box*.

You can skip telling me you already basically said what I wrote in my soap box rant. I'm well aware, but I just needed to write all that so it would stop bothering me. That second part of that post was all for me.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-22 1:34 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
<puts trevor on his "good posters" list>

:D

And being that far down is what makes politicking necessary in multiplayer boys and girls.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-23 5:01 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
Artos wrote:
Anselan wrote:
Shoe3 wrote:
is there no one out there but me that thinks Strip Mine is the problem? Fastbond and Earthcraft combos are good, but they are still not the biggest deal. The part people hate about Fastbond+Strip Mine/Wasteland+Crucible is that thier land is destroyed. Well, i hate to break it to you, but Strip Mine/Wasteland is what is enableing this combo. There isnt any other major complaint against either of Crucible and Fastbond that is perticularly hard to deal with. Now, Wasteland seems, to me, easy to answer. play with a few basics in youir deck. Strip mine is not good for anything that wasteland doesn't do that is healtyhy for a fun format. Destroying a Basic land is rarely that good or even relevant unless it is done in Masse (I. E. sundering titan). I guess what I am trying to say is; name a fun way to play with Strip Mine. I sure cant think of any, but i can for both Fastbond and Crucible.

-Shoe


I already brought this up, but nobody seemed to listen/care.


Because Strip Mine and Wasteland are balancing factors to powerful non-basics like Maze of Ith. I would play them in any deck that plans on winning via general damage simply to handle that one card. They are also quite good for aggressive decks to use against control simply because of the tempo boost. They are also quite handy political pieces "attack me and you'll face color-screw".


Wasteland is, yes, but strip mine hurts everyone equally. If you need LD for non basics use ghost quarter or wasteland. those both do a great job punishing the MDMB, which i think is a good thing, but strip mine has no such restrictions and that is the big problem IMHO. it goes from Waste all your greedy non-basics to Strip all lands that arent mine.

I am all for non-basic land hate, but strip mine is just unfun in EVERY situation that it is used in.

If someone can argue a fun way that strip mine can be used and wasteland cannot, i will cede my point.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-24 9:46 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-13 1:50 pm
Age: Wyvern
Your deck can run one Ghost Quarter and one Wasteland (and one Dust Bowl). That's three. Now...how many troublesome non-basics can opponents run?

Exactly.

(Also, if you have Orb/Crucible/Fastbond, you can still destroy every land with Ghost Quarter. That doesn't change, it just takes more iterations.)


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-24 11:35 am 

Joined: 2008-May-13 2:34 pm
Age: Hatchling
Location: Seattle, WA
Snowden wrote:
Your deck can run one Ghost Quarter and one Wasteland (and one Dust Bowl). That's three. Now...how many troublesome non-basics can opponents run?


This is pretty much how I feel. There are so many lands that are just silly, and not every color has access to a variety of ways to deal with them. If I could run 2 wastelands, I would ditch Strip mine and never look back.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-24 3:20 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
nickchat wrote:
If I could run 2 wastelands, I would ditch Strip mine and never look back.


You don't have the BALLS to ditch strip mine! OOOOOHHHHHH!

I own at least 20 strip mines. I have 7 EDH decks and I play 1 strip mine total. Dude...I pwn you...


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-24 3:58 pm 
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Age: Drake
Location: Texas
warble wrote:
I own at least 20 strip mines. I have 7 EDH decks and I play 1 strip mine total. Dude...I pwn you...


Do you really need THAT MANY strip mines? I personally think hoarding cards like that is such a waste, especially in the case of older cards such as Strip Mine.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-24 10:55 pm 

Joined: 2006-Jul-14 12:02 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wherever I may roam
Tharian wrote:
Do you really need THAT MANY strip mines? I personally think hoarding cards like that is such a waste, especially in the case of older cards such as Strip Mine.


Even I don't own that many, but seriously, next you'll be accusing the people of holding a whole playset of bitterblossoms of basically price fixing the market...

When a playable card's under $2 (http://www.findmagiccards.com/Cards/4E/Strip_Mine.html) there's probably a reason.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-24 11:30 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
I back my deck in Antiquities Strip Mine, all the same picture. I win.

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