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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 10:29 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
RobPro wrote:
So, you're saying that artifact acceleration and cheap tutors are auto-includes in every deck, so they should be immune from banning?

Because, I think a card that is an auto-include in every deck is something that should be considered when looking at whether a card should be banned or legal. A perfect example of this is Sol Ring. Sure, Sol Ring doesn't win the game by itself, but it goes in EVERY deck and sets up a win at least 2 turns sooner.


Why am I taking heat from both sides of this discussion? My position is that tutors are equalizers in a singelton format for those who wish to run them. I actually don't run a single demonic tutor in any of my decks, yet I still recognize their value. The closest thing I have is mystical teachings and congregation at dawn. They shouldn't be immune from banning either but they are all the more useful in this format so the ban list should cut them some slack because of what they add.

I also don't think there are specific cards to auto include in each deck. Each deck has different needs based on how it runs and the playgroup you play it in. Sure there are good ones like sol ring (use 0 copies), demonic tutor (0 copies), ewit (2 copies) etc. Peopl will say that dual lands, fetches, painlands and shocklands are auto-includes, yet I run no copies of any of them in any of my 5 EDH's.

My initial point had everything to do with rofellos as a general which I think is fine especially with him being green, powering out fatties in the early game, yet it's not like he's unanswerable either. Metalworker was one card I was happy to see go along with tinker (hey, that's a tutor!)

_________________
1] Horde of Notions (Blink)
2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
5] Omnath, Locus of Mana (Big Green Men)
6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
8] Rafiq of the Many (One Man, Alone)
9] Reaper King (Taste the EPIC!)
10] Uril, the Miststalker (Dark Rafiq)


I THINK in metaphors


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-01 7:23 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
A big part of designing an EDH deck for me is finding 5-6 cards that can do approximately the same thing. For example, I refer to Siege-Gang Commander, Derranged Hermit, and Cloudgoat Ranger as the "token holy trinity" and I built my Rith deck around cards that function similar to those or take advantage of them.

Tutors allow me to play cards that are fairly narrow but good answers to the semi-random cards you'll often see in EDH.

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Current Generals:
Rafiq, Sharuum, Nekusar, Kresh, Mayael, Kaalia, Maelstrom Wanderer, Ghave, Ruhan, Mimeoplasm, Genju of the Realm, Phelddagrif, Derevi, Oloro, Jenara, Karrthus, Marath, Tariel, Riku, Karador, Numot, Damia, Sliver Overlord, Karn, Silver Golem


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-01 7:50 am 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-23 10:03 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: The Netherlands - Hoorn
I think that in a singleton format tutors are essential in keeping some degree of consistency in your deck. Heck, that's the reason I love playing black for god sake, I want to play my Demonic Tutor! If you remove those and Sol Ring, you might as well make EDH Legacy style, because you really have nothing left that makes a difference. For me, being able to play my vintage goodies but not have to come up with the amounts of cash and cards to play in a real vintage tournament is a big part of what's the fun of EDH.

So, don't remove the 1/2cc tutors, that ruins the game. Also, why remove Sol Ring is everyone plays him? Sure, sometimes you get lucky and have it in your opening hand, but every once in a while, we all have that luck. And the rest of the time it's helpfull but not broken.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-01 1:02 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Poesjuh wrote:
I think that in a singleton format tutors are essential in keeping some degree of consistency in your deck. Heck, that's the reason I love playing black for god sake, I want to play my Demonic Tutor! If you remove those and Sol Ring, you might as well make EDH Legacy style, because you really have nothing left that makes a difference. For me, being able to play my vintage goodies but not have to come up with the amounts of cash and cards to play in a real vintage tournament is a big part of what's the fun of EDH.

So, don't remove the 1/2cc tutors, that ruins the game. Also, why remove Sol Ring is everyone plays him? Sure, sometimes you get lucky and have it in your opening hand, but every once in a while, we all have that luck. And the rest of the time it's helpfull but not broken.


I second this. I really enjoy being able to play my Sol Rings and Demonic Tutors etc in my EDH decks that I simply can't play in a legacy deck. I really appreciate the power level of this fomat - it's fun, but not stupid.

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Current Generals:
Rafiq, Sharuum, Nekusar, Kresh, Mayael, Kaalia, Maelstrom Wanderer, Ghave, Ruhan, Mimeoplasm, Genju of the Realm, Phelddagrif, Derevi, Oloro, Jenara, Karrthus, Marath, Tariel, Riku, Karador, Numot, Damia, Sliver Overlord, Karn, Silver Golem


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-26 4:28 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Typing in caps makes me look like a noob and it's also annoying.

Well, yes, I am a noob, but I put it in a picture so it's less annoying.

Image

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-27 3:20 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I just wanted to say that whoever decided to unban Rofellos as a general has earned my passionate, undying hatred. As soon as that happened, every Spike in the North Bay built a Rofellos deck (because he's now the "best" general), and now I'm stuck playing against the same degenerate shit all the time. Not only is it endlessly annoying to play the same match over and over again (or have to watch two people playing the same deck), it means I have to play Oona to not get totally raped, which I don't want to have to do because Oona is my 1v1 deck, not my fun deck.

Rofellos is just flat-out retarded. The only ways to consistently answer it are to play Night of Soul's Betrayal and cross your fingers, pack your deck with Armageddon effects, or play Braids and pray you're faster. The mana acceleration he provides leaves everything but other Rofellos decks in the dust, and the amount of green and artifact card draw and tutoring is just high enough that the deck isn't inconsistent. Combine this with the time frame in which he comes out, and you've got a deck that can run circles around other decks before those can even get off the ground. Your opponent plays lands? Mishra's Helix him every upkeep while you dig around for a Hurricane. Your opponent plays creatures without shroud? Staff of Domination them all on his declare attackers step. While you're at it, use Planar Portal every turn, or get infinite mana with Umbral Mantle, or draw your deck with Staff of Domination. The least impressive play this deck could make is a turn four Crush of Wurms, and that's assuming your opponent is nice enough to run bad cards.

Please re-ban Rofellos. It's bad enough having to play a "fun" format with inhumanly competitive people without enabling another ridiculous deck.

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Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-29 7:02 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Aggro_zombies wrote:
I just wanted to say that whoever decided to unban Rofellos as a general has earned my passionate, undying hatred. As soon as that happened, every Spike in the North Bay built a Rofellos deck (because he's now the "best" general), and now I'm stuck playing against the same degenerate shit all the time. Not only is it endlessly annoying to play the same match over and over again (or have to watch two people playing the same deck), it means I have to play Oona to not get totally raped, which I don't want to have to do because Oona is my 1v1 deck, not my fun deck.


If the players in your metagame are really that blind to playing in an unfun enviroment maybe you should just talk to them. I agree playing in that sort of enviroment is bad and boring but consider playing with different players as well who share you goals of playing with more interesting decks. Either that or convince other players to build additional fun EDH's. That's what players in my main play group found. It's nice to have the one killer combo-arcum build. But three or four games after being hated out by players who actually want to have fun, people generally start to figure out that there are better ways to play EDH.

_________________
1] Horde of Notions (Blink)
2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
5] Omnath, Locus of Mana (Big Green Men)
6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
8] Rafiq of the Many (One Man, Alone)
9] Reaper King (Taste the EPIC!)
10] Uril, the Miststalker (Dark Rafiq)


I THINK in metaphors


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-29 7:16 pm 

Joined: 2008-Sep-09 9:54 am
Age: Dragon
Location: New England
Jukren54 wrote:
Aggro_zombies wrote:

If the players in your metagame are really that blind to playing in an unfun enviroment maybe you should just talk to them. I agree playing in that sort of enviroment is bad and boring but consider playing with different players as well who share you goals of playing with more interesting decks. Either that or convince other players to build additional fun EDH's. That's what players in my main play group found. It's nice to have the one killer combo-arcum build. But three or four games after being hated out by players who actually want to have fun, people generally start to figure out that there are better ways to play EDH.


Just to play devil's advocate here, but a banned/restricted list is usually what prevents this from happening...

-->DJ


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-30 3:40 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-07 11:34 am
Age: Wyvern
Dear Aggro Zombies,

Run a deck with burn.

Sincerely,
John Jones

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Generals - Any U/B/R one because I run degenerate combo and don't cast them anyway unless I need a blocker for hot second or I am trying to not win.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-30 6:43 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
So run Cursed Totem? If you're running Oona, you'll have access to plenty of search (some that specifically gets artifacts and puts them into play.)

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Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-30 9:40 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
DJ Catchem wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate here, but a banned/restricted list is usually what prevents this from happening...

-->DJ


Yeah, I know. The thing is that I feel that Rofellos is fine, (just on the edge) simply because of the color restriction that hand cuffs you in terms of deck building. Mono greet doesn't have that many options with insane mana ramp. Rofellos just needs a terror or a PtoE and that player is slowed down quite a bit so I don't think he's ban worthy. I's not like playing atifacts where you can run whatever combo you want because they're colorless. Because of this I can see why players would gravitate towards this kind of metagame as he is a very good general. But for a fun format like EDH I think people should realize on their own that maybe they should play with other decks.

_________________
1] Horde of Notions (Blink)
2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
5] Omnath, Locus of Mana (Big Green Men)
6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
8] Rafiq of the Many (One Man, Alone)
9] Reaper King (Taste the EPIC!)
10] Uril, the Miststalker (Dark Rafiq)


I THINK in metaphors


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-30 9:50 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-07 11:34 am
Age: Wyvern
Jukren54 wrote:
DJ Catchem wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate here, but a banned/restricted list is usually what prevents this from happening...

-->DJ


Yeah, I know. The thing is that I feel that Rofellos is fine, (just on the edge) simply because of the color restriction that hand cuffs you in terms of deck building. Mono greet doesn't have that many options with insane mana ramp. Rofellos just needs a terror or a PtoE and that player is slowed down quite a bit so I don't think he's ban worthy. I's not like playing atifacts where you can run whatever combo you want because they're colorless. Because of this I can see why players would gravitate towards this kind of metagame as he is a very good general. But for a fun format like EDH I think people should realize on their own that maybe they should play with other decks.


But they shouldn't have to realize on their own that their decks are too good. If a general is too good, or a deck is too good, the ruling comitee/house rules should take care of that.

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Generals - Any U/B/R one because I run degenerate combo and don't cast them anyway unless I need a blocker for hot second or I am trying to not win.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-30 2:30 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-14 11:39 pm
Age: Wyvern
after reading this thread I'll contribute what I can as someone who plays a rofellos deck:

he's fast accel. really fast accel. granted. vs metalworker? about the same. metalworker makes more here but not too much more. Here's the issue:

discounting staff of domination/umbral mantle, what I am playing that early that messes with you guys so much? I'M MONO FRIGGIN GREEN. I'm not counting those two cards as I'm not playing them out of respect for my playgroup: we found that general+1 combos are stupid and we might as well play vintage for 2 card win the game combos. If you are playing in that environment, you probably consider t2 bitterblossom t3 braids "fun". If so you get no sympathy from this rofellos player.

The best I could come up with would be tutors/fatties but this is green fat remember: it's big and some of it tramples/regenerates but is t3 silvos really that bad? Cmon, it's an 8/5 trampling regenerator. it's pretty much the definition of BIG GREEN FAT and quite often it's dead within a turn or 2 to some wrath/swords/zomgblackspell. Sundering titan on t4 maybe? Seriously, you tell me so that I can put it in the deck.

what, I play mind's eye 2 turns early? Sure, I can draw extra cards but they're green! What am I going to do, desert twister something? um, ok, one in the deck, now it's gone play your keiga/yosei/gifts ungiven. Mishra's helix? Sure but that goes with the umbral mantle/staff of domination: it's fun for you, no fun for anyone else.

Seriously? Any legal mono green spell on t3 (castable at 6 mana) vs t3 gifts ungiven, both in decks designed to abuse them. Which are you more likely to want?


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-30 5:52 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
DJ Catchem wrote:
Just to play devil's advocate here, but a banned/restricted list is usually what prevents this from happening...


I used to think that. Now I believe that a banned list merely encourages people who like breaking formats, because it gives them a bit more of a challenge.

We could "fix" the format with an extensive banlist. Frankly, "Extended-legal" probably does it. Who thinks that's a good idea?

People want a format where they can play their old, splashy cards. Many of those cards have degenerate applications, but are fine for casual players who just want to have some fun with them. You can't have it both ways.


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AgePosted: 2009-Apr-30 11:58 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
nonamebob wrote:
after reading this thread I'll contribute what I can as someone who plays a rofellos deck:

he's fast accel. really fast accel. granted. vs metalworker? about the same. metalworker makes more here but not too much more. Here's the issue:

discounting staff of domination/umbral mantle, what I am playing that early that messes with you guys so much? I'M MONO FRIGGIN GREEN. I'm not counting those two cards as I'm not playing them out of respect for my playgroup: we found that general+1 combos are stupid and we might as well play vintage for 2 card win the game combos. If you are playing in that environment, you probably consider t2 bitterblossom t3 braids "fun". If so you get no sympathy from this rofellos player.

The best I could come up with would be tutors/fatties but this is green fat remember: it's big and some of it tramples/regenerates but is t3 silvos really that bad? Cmon, it's an 8/5 trampling regenerator. it's pretty much the definition of BIG GREEN FAT and quite often it's dead within a turn or 2 to some wrath/swords/zomgblackspell. Sundering titan on t4 maybe? Seriously, you tell me so that I can put it in the deck.

what, I play mind's eye 2 turns early? Sure, I can draw extra cards but they're green! What am I going to do, desert twister something? um, ok, one in the deck, now it's gone play your keiga/yosei/gifts ungiven. Mishra's helix? Sure but that goes with the umbral mantle/staff of domination: it's fun for you, no fun for anyone else.

Seriously? Any legal mono green spell on t3 (castable at 6 mana) vs t3 gifts ungiven, both in decks designed to abuse them. Which are you more likely to want?

You are awesome. I have changed my mind on Rofellos. I don't think he should be re-banned anymore.

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