Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Oct-14 6:28 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 80 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-30 3:50 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
User avatar

Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
"Official House Rules" is a pretty silly idea IMO. If they were official, they wouldn't be house rules.

_________________
"Leave the gun. Take the cannolis."


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 7:46 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
Jedit wrote:

What I think EDH really needs is a core banned list of all the cards that genuinely are too degenerate to play; the ones that reward the rich and the ones that break the game when they're played. From the current banned list, that would be:


And what happens if everybody disagrees about the 'core banned list'? I disagree with at least 5 cards on that list, but can think of 15 more that really should go.

Just look at it how I proposed it "What turn is too early for a game to end?" Then take a look at all the cards that facilitate speedier games. I think if a fair amount of mana acceleration (of the cheap artifact variety) were banned, as well as a lot of the 1-2cc tutors, most of the above cards wouldn't be as problematic because their combos would be nearly impossible to assemble.

_________________
My decks:
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Karona, False Beer


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 7:51 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Aug-23 10:03 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: The Netherlands - Hoorn
I you remove a lot of the 1-2 cc tutors, you have no tutors left. Except those that suck or cost a lot of money (Grim Tutor anyone?).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 9:19 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
Poesjuh wrote:
I you remove a lot of the 1-2 cc tutors, you have no tutors left. Except those that suck or cost a lot of money (Grim Tutor anyone?).


You mean, it slows the format down and limits degeneracy? I'm not saying it's the best course of action, but it's certainly an idea worth discussing.

_________________
My decks:
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Karona, False Beer


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 10:35 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
Actually, I would be pretty interested in a format without cards like Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Tainted Pact, etc. I agree that it would definitely slow the game down a bit and combo would take a punch in the face. The only problem with removing early artifact acceleration is that we are more suseptable to land destruction decks. Then of course Crucible was unbanned. I agree it is worth discussing. Post a new topic anyone?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 1:27 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
Poesjuh wrote:
I you remove a lot of the 1-2 cc tutors, you have no tutors left. Except those that suck or cost a lot of money (Grim Tutor anyone?).


You mean, it slows the format down and limits degeneracy? I'm not saying it's the best course of action, but it's certainly an idea worth discussing.

uhh.. youre notseriously suggesting the elimination or quality acceleration are you?!.. sounds pretty damn boring... accelerating into something big on an early turn is fun... way more fun than waiting until you have 8 lands to cast the fatty in your hand.. just to find out that mono-blue accross the table had a counter loaded just in case...

option A (with tutors and acceleration): fun, fast, exciting, challenging..gee i really like the freedom of this format, and amazingly it still feels like im playing magic. and look, if i need an answer to turn-two braids now i can tutor up some Swords to P action.. and if my plan fizzles i can tutor up another option instead of topdecking through my 100 card deck until ive sac'd all my lands...

option B (only shitty tutors and mostly no worthwhile acceleration): slow, boring, unexciting, unappealing. this format sux... hmm.. instead of 1 drop sol ring i now have 4 drop sissy's ring... yugioh is actually starting to sound fun.. this format sux. maybe not for the over 65 crowd, but thats not me.

and degeneracy is in the eye of the critic... also, removing key spells and card types (type by function) will cause degeneracy in the format as a whole..which will make it suck.

LESS EFFICIENT = LESS EVOLVED = MORE DEGENERATE = BORING GAME = NOT FUN

deâ‹…genâ‹…erâ‹…ate
    [v. di-jen-uh-reyt; adj., n. di-jen-er-it] Show IPA verb, -at⋅ed, -at⋅ing, adjective, noun
–verb (used without object)
1. to fall below a normal or desirable level in physical, mental, or moral qualities; deteriorate: The morale of the soldiers degenerated, and they were unable to fight.
2. to diminish in quality, esp. from a former state of coherence, balance, integrity, etc.: The debate degenerated into an exchange of insults.

3. Pathology. to lose functional activity, as a tissue or organ.
4. Evolution. (of a species or any of its traits or structures) to revert to a simple, less highly organized, or less functionally active type, as a parasitic plant that has lost its taproot or the vestigial wings of a flightless bird.
–verb (used with object)
5. to cause degeneration in; bring about a decline, deterioration, or reversion in.
–adjective
6. having fallen below a normal or desirable level, esp. in physical or moral qualities; deteriorated; degraded: a degenerate king.
7. having lost, or become impaired with respect to, the qualities proper to the race or kind: a degenerate vine.
8. characterized by or associated with degeneracy: degenerate times.
9. Mathematics. pertaining to a limiting case of a mathematical system that is more symmetrical or simpler in form than the general case.
10. Physics.
a. (of modes of vibration of a system) having the same frequency.
b. (of quantum states of a system) having equal energy.
–noun
11. a person who has declined, as in morals or character, from a type or standard considered normal.
12. a person or thing that reverts to an earlier stage of culture, development, or evolution.
13. a sexual deviate.

Quote:
Actually, I would be pretty interested in a format without cards like Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Tainted Pact, etc. I agree that it would definitely slow the game down a bit and combo would take a punch in the face. The only problem with removing early artifact acceleration is that we are more suseptable to land destruction decks. Then of course Crucible was unbanned. I agree it is worth discussing. Post a new topic anyone?

so create a different format. Peasant was fun, and when there was demand for an all commons format, someone had the insight to create Pauper.

_________________
...banned lists are for pussies


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 1:54 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
I think you highlighted the wrong portion of your definition of "degenerate" as it applies here. Yeah, gonna go ahead and say you did. Maybe you should reread this entire thread and revise your post to see where the rest of us are coming from.

_________________
My decks:
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Karona, False Beer


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 3:31 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
draaaak wrote:
oh really? please, point to the definition that best applies to what you said...
try rereading my post in relation to yours... and you might find, if you manage to get your head out of your ass for once, that the portion i highlighted is DIRECTLY related to what you said.


Dude, chill out! this is a fun forum and I think you're the only one I've seen that uses foul language on it. You've given your input and there's reason to call people names and get all angry about it.

In response to the actual topic of fast mana and tutors. I think they each have their own place. Fast mana has a place on the watch list I think aside from Fastbond which I think needs to go especially with the un-banning of crucible. I have yet to see it become broken but the combination is just too powerful.

Fast mana is fine and it's fun to play a 6/6 on turn 2 or something. It needs to be watched in terms of consistancy but otherwise I think it's fine for those players to play out that god hand, which (unless they're playing a combo or lock deck) will probably not have a lasting impact on the game.

I agree with the decision to ban metal worker and tinker and unban rofellos. Green decks tend to be the less broken decks to play in EDH (aside from ones that use Fastbond,) while artifact ones have seen a rise in "brokenness" as of late. I think denying one source of fast mana is perfectly reasonable to the more broken deck while enabling the other which is less likely to abuse it unfairly.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with tutors. It's a hundred card singleton format! There are some bombs you always want to see or special cards that have such amazing synergy with your general. These are fine. Sure they are combo enablers but it's still a multiplayer format and the fact that one player might use demonic tutor to grab time stretch for ewit shenaniggens shouldn't take away from the player who wants to use it to grab a warp world.

I know I've advocated against combo decks in the past but in truth I think I'm more against the playing of the deck as a choice rather than the ability to build such a deck. Sure you might want to run one but I don't think it's a good choice for EDH, unless you have a specific playgroup that runs a lot of combo. Single combo players in playgroups are not fun.

_________________
1] Horde of Notions (Blink)
2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
5] Omnath, Locus of Mana (Big Green Men)
6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
8] Rafiq of the Many (One Man, Alone)
9] Reaper King (Taste the EPIC!)
10] Uril, the Miststalker (Dark Rafiq)


I THINK in metaphors


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 6:09 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
Dude, chill out! this is a fun forum and I think you're the only one I've seen that uses foul language on it. You've given your input and there's reason to call people names and get all angry about it.

foul language!??! ...the horror.. get over it.

Quote:
It needs to be watched in terms of consistancy
consistency, ive found, is often the mark of a well constructed deck. decks can of course be built to varying standards, but if it rarely plays as designed then its probably not built very well.. this should hold up even in singleton formats where inconsistency is more common. accel and tutors do help maintain consistency in a singleton format.

_________________
...banned lists are for pussies


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 7:47 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Feb-10 4:16 pm
Age: Wyvern
It's true that consistency is the mark of a wll constructed deck but there is a difference between a deck playing according to its game plan constantly and killing 5 people on turn 2 constantly.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 8:40 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
there is a difference between a deck playing according to its game plan constantly and killing 5 people on turn 2 constantly.

that is true. but artifact based mana accel and tutor effects are not just for comboing out on turn two for the win. they are usually essential elements to any deck worth playing with or against.... if hard-casting and top-decking was the most efficient way to play this game, then it would be the status quo.. but its not, so it isnt. and who complains about acceleration in a format that takes hours to play?? ...or any format.. accel is what it is all about. thats the primary reason why most decks succeed.



...so dont hate, accelerate. (sorry...compulsion)

_________________
...banned lists are for pussies


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 9:29 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-25 3:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Monnaldo wrote:
It's true that consistency is the mark of a wll constructed deck but there is a difference between a deck playing according to its game plan constantly and killing 5 people on turn 2 constantly.


That was basically what I meant when I was talking about "consistency".

draaaak wrote:
Quote:
there is a difference between a deck playing according to its game plan constantly and killing 5 people on turn 2 constantly.

that is true. but artifact based mana accel and tutor effects are not just for comboing out on turn two for the win. they are usually essential elements to any deck worth playing with or against.... if hard-casting and top-decking was the most efficient way to play this game, then it would be the status quo.. but its not, so it isnt. and who complains about acceleration in a format that takes hours to play?? ...or any format.. accel is what it is all about. thats the primary reason why most decks succeed.


I agree that tutors and mana accel have there place and are in fact crucial to EDH. The only time I complain about acceleration is when it happens in the span of 1 or 2 turns and leads to an insta-win.

_________________
1] Horde of Notions (Blink)
2] Teneb, The Harvester (Rock)
3] Isperia the Inscrutable (U/W Control)
4] Mayael the Anima (Fatties FTW!)
5] Omnath, Locus of Mana (Big Green Men)
6] Oros, The Avenger (Rock Burn)
7] Savra, Queen of the Golgari (Token Snack)
8] Rafiq of the Many (One Man, Alone)
9] Reaper King (Taste the EPIC!)
10] Uril, the Miststalker (Dark Rafiq)


I THINK in metaphors


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 9:32 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
So, you're saying that artifact acceleration and cheap tutors are auto-includes in every deck, so they should be immune from banning?

Because, I think a card that is an auto-include in every deck is something that should be considered when looking at whether a card should be banned or legal. A perfect example of this is Sol Ring. Sure, Sol Ring doesn't win the game by itself, but it goes in EVERY deck and sets up a win at least 2 turns sooner.

_________________
My decks:
Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Karona, False Beer


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 9:34 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
User avatar

Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
I've received and read a number of complaints about drak's language and offensive attitude, and personally I grow tired of it.

I'm almost sure he'll say it's everyone else's fault and mistake, but two weeks vacation from the forum will be an opportunity for him to reflect and the rest of us to get back to some level of civility. I doubt he'll get the point, but I'm happy to be proven wrong. If not, I doubt many of us will care.

G


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject:
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-31 10:04 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Feb-14 11:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Winfield, KS
Genomancer wrote:
I've received and read a number of complaints about drak's language and offensive attitude, and personally I grow tired of it.

I'm almost sure he'll say it's everyone else's fault and mistake, but two weeks vacation from the forum will be an opportunity for him to reflect and the rest of us to get back to some level of civility. I doubt he'll get the point, but I'm happy to be proven wrong. If not, I doubt many of us will care.

G


this made me giggle... i completely agree genomancer

_________________
Image

check out the Mighty Emergence combo.
Thraximundar, "lets paint the town red"
Teysa, Orzhov Scion (retired)
Sasaya (in the making)
Isamaru (in the making)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 80 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: cryogen and 18 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: