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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-28 9:27 am 
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Joined: 2009-Feb-14 11:25 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Winfield, KS
reading all of this makes me want to build a rofellos deck... with tons of mana ramp, saprolings, life and limb, and fatties. A true green deck. sure it will run staff, but why not?

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-29 11:22 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
It's interesting that Rofellos was compared to generals like Zur, Jhoira, Arcum, and Braids. Now I realize that I made this thread as a "Rofellos vs. Metalworker" thread, so I'm going to try to keep my sidetracking of the original theme of the thread to a minimum. Here's the question:

Does anyone else find it strange that Rofellos was only recently unbanned (albeit, with the phrase, "we'll keep our eyes peeled" attached to him) and yet the anti-social generals like the ones I listed above aren't even on the watch list? Basically what I'm saying is why is Rofellos drawing so much love/hate and yet those generals aren't even under discussion of banning?


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-29 2:37 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
It's easy to hate every one of those other guys. Remember we have sideboards now, guys.

Specific to Jhoira: Clockspinning, Chains of Mephistopheles, Uba Mask, Fury Charm, Shivan Sand-Mage, Timecrafting, Pull From Eternity, Dust of Moments (tisk, Riftsweeper, an ideal foil to suspended cards - that was its intended pupose, is banned).

Specific to Arcum: Null Rod goes a long way. Dream Leash. Energy Flux. Kataki, War's Wage. Kill Switch. Imi Statue. Rebuild. Hurkyl's Recall. Purify, Seed's of Innocence, Shatterstorm, Jokulhaups, Boomerang in response to his Arcum activation fizzles it - Arcum's ability is flawed in that the sacrifice is part of the effect, not the cost. So a repeatable boomerang like Venser or stifle like Voidmage Shusher is good. Thus Lethal Vapors works well to keep creatures off the board to begin with, and Night of Soul's Betrayal if he's using token Engines.

Specific to Braids: Crucible has been unbanned. Play green. You get Reap (BONER), Compost and crazy card advantage off of pembra creatures or the symbiotic creatures, and cards like Kodama's Reach, Gaea's Bounty, Skyshroud Claim and Explosive Vegetation to keep you ahead of the sacrifice curve. Not to mention Life From the Loam. If you Board in Leyline of the Void and play it, black has no artifact removal, so you could pull this attrition battle out.

Specific to Arcum& Jhoira: Cursed Totem

Specific to Arcum, Jhoira & Braids: Aether Flash (kills their general right as it enters play), Spreading Plague (they're all monocolor, and it will hit Arcum's new arsenal of BLUE artifact creatures)

Specific to all three: Lethal Vapors, Portcullis, Declaration of Naught, Aether Flash, Spreading Plague.

Zur's tricker; he doesn't die to Aether Flash, but he is susceptible to Lethal Vapors. To blow up all enchantments you have: Austere Command, Akroma's Vengence, Calming Verse, Cleanfall, Cleansing Meditation, Essence Filter, Fracturing Gust (the best option), Hush, Magus of the Disk, Multani's Decree, Nev's Disk, Nova Cleric, Patrician's Scorn, Primeval Light, Purify, REMOVE ENCHANTMENTS, reverent silence, root greevil, serenity,spring cleaning (and since many of Zur's enchantments have to be low cost, you have a good shot at winning the clash),Tempest of Light, Tranquil Grove, Tranquil Path, and the old original, Tranquility.

Oh, yeah, Oblivion Stone, Scourglass, Worldslayer, Apocalypse, too.

Reduce to Deams returns all enchantments to their owners hands. And artifacts, too.

Presence of the Master and Aura of Silence should also serve as speedbumps for a Zur deck.

Since such a deck relies on attacking to win, Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Collective Restraint and Ensnaring Bridge really thwart that idea.

Lastly, this is fundamentally a tutor deck, is it not?

So I strongly suggest Aven Mindcensor , Shadow of a Doubt, and Mindlock Orb.

That is how I would sideboard for these beastly decks.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-29 2:55 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
When I play Rofellos, I have a LOT of mana denial/game slowing. As well as a ton of FAT.
I've been running this list and it is honestly stupid how strong it is.

// Lands
35 Forest
1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
1 Rhox
1 Roughshod Mentor
1 Myojin of Life's Web
1 Patron of the Orochi
1 Plated Slagwurm
1 Primalcrux
1 Regal Force
1 Living Hive
1 Tornado Elemental
1 Wood Elves
1 Verdeloth the Ancient
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Rushwood Elemental
1 Genesis
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Sundering Titan
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Silvos, Rogue Elemental
1 Duplicant
1 Vigor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Multani, Maro-Sorcerer
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Weatherseed Treefolk
1 Verdant Force
1 Cloudthresher
1 Thorn Elemental
1 Jedit Ojanen of Efrava
1 Jugan, the Rising Star

// Spells
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Planar Portal
1 Restock
1 Creeping Mold
1 Desert Twister
1 Rootgrapple
1 Whispersilk Cloak
1 Sigil of Distinction
1 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
1 Overrun
1 Decree of Savagery
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Mana Reflection
1 Plow Under
1 Hunting Wilds
1 Reap and Sow
1 Mindslaver
1 Harmonize
1 Explosive Vegetation
1 Regrowth
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Stunted Growth
1 Memory Jar
1 Mind's Eye
1 Rites of Flourishing
1 Howling Mine
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Fastbond
1 Recollect

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-29 3:12 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
A lot of people still don't play with sideboards because it doesn't feel "casual". Nor do sideboards effect untrusted games. People with sideboards will sideboard for their metagame, not for every possible "mean deck" out there.

I don't feel it's fair to allow cards that have such negative effects on the game that you need pre-game hate boarded in just to deal with them, and yet ban a card like metalworker, which can't even be a general and comes up only a small percentage of the games played. Especially when, as I stated earlier, you have a card with a similar effect that comes out a turn earlier, and comes out that turn every game. Cards are either bad for the format, or they're not. The simultaneous banning/unbanning of Metalworker/Rofellos, along with the lack of addition to the watch list of what are, IMO, much more innapropriate generals, seems like either a double standard, or an oversight.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-29 3:45 pm 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 5:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
yawg07 wrote:
I've been running this list and it is honestly stupid how strong it is.


It'd be stronger if you remembered to put Staff of I-Win and Goblin Cannon in it. :)


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-29 6:56 pm 

Joined: 2008-Dec-23 1:13 am
Age: Drake
Keep in mind rofellos is nothing more than a one-sided mana flare or a cheaper miraris wake and really there is nothing wrong with those cards. yes he is a general but if he really is that big of a problem the metagame will deal with him.

each of the colors have thier own deal that they do well

blue-control
red-burn
black-destroy effects
white-lifegain
green-mana excel

i do realize this isnt a perfect list of the colors and thier abilities its just a general realation ive seen in the colors (no pun intended)

so i think rofellos is just a perfect green card, plus all those fat creatures i would never have played before are now in a deck, yay


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-29 7:12 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
I may be sidetracking on this thread, but I feel I really want to respond to the Sideboard idea for dealing with Generals:

You get 10 cards to deal with generals in your sideboard. Does that give you enough in a 100 card format to combat any of the generals? I guess if you consider the only way to combat the generals is by early removal, maybe, but there are generals that need specific types of hate (Zur for example) and if you dedicate some of your sideboard to dealing with Braids, how do you get enough in your sideboard to deal with Zur too, or Jhoira?

I really don't like the idea of a sideboard for the format mainly because it's a casual format. Sideboards aren't casual. I'd rather see a banned list of Generals.

I don't know if a larger banned list would make it feel more casual than sideboards, but there are definite ideas of what is not fun to play against (Infinate Combos, Land D, etc).

I think Rofellos is pretty crazy just because he is a guaranteed early drop. Even so, I don't know if he deserves the ban-hammer anymore. I can't wait to see what the testing the Rules Committee does shows for this and other cases.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-29 10:22 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-28 12:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Massachusetts
I wouldn't mind a larger banned list, so long as the cards on it actually deserved to be there. To figure that out, though, you'd have to make some judgement calls.

Asking "Should a 4 player EDH game be winnable through a combo before turn 10?" might be a good place to start, and from there we could see what would be healthy to remove. I am not saying winning before turn 10 is bad, I'm just using it as an example. I don't know what would be a good number to use, but that seems like an appropriate way to look at it.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-30 10:26 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 5:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
RobPro wrote:
I wouldn't mind a larger banned list, so long as the cards on it actually deserved to be there.


I would mind a larger banned list, because it's harder to administer. This is a casual "fun" format. It doesn't become more fun if you have to spend 10 minutes before each session figuring out if your deck is legal, so banning of cards should be kept to an absolute minimum.

What I think EDH really needs is a core banned list of all the cards that genuinely are too degenerate to play; the ones that reward the rich and the ones that break the game when they're played. From the current banned list, that would be:

* Worldgorger Dragon
* Biorhythm
* Sway of the Stars
* Upheaval
* Panoptic Mirror
* Ancestral Recall
* Black Lotus
* Moxen
* Time Walk
* Library of Alexandria
* Limited Resources
* Lion's Eye Diamond
* Time Vault

All other "officially" banned cards would go on a secondary list ... an official House Rules list, if you will.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-30 11:44 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
I would mind a larger banned list, because it's harder to administer. This is a casual "fun" format. It doesn't become more fun if you have to spend 10 minutes before each session figuring out if your deck is legal, so banning of cards should be kept to an absolute minimum.

What I think EDH really needs is a core banned list of all the cards that genuinely are too degenerate to play; the ones that reward the rich and the ones that break the game when they're played. From the current banned list, that would be:

* Worldgorger Dragon
* Biorhythm
* Sway of the Stars
* Upheaval
* Panoptic Mirror
* Ancestral Recall
* Black Lotus
* Moxen
* Time Walk
* Library of Alexandria
* Limited Resources
* Lion's Eye Diamond
* Time Vault

All other "officially" banned cards would go on a secondary list ... an official House Rules list, if you will.


This sounds like the most realistic idea so far in regard to making the banned list fair and balanced for fun/casual play. over-banning will just alienate certain players and will complicate things for everyone. and i think youre dead on with the core list you have selected...only cards that screw with the format and how it functions, not cards that just bug people because theyre "sooo" powerful.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-30 11:50 am 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
People aren't going to spend 10 minutes before games figuring out whether or not their deck is legal, unless you don't check the ban list at least once every 3 months. Updating the banned list more times a year would have the effect you seem afraid of. In my experience, people usually show up with a legal deck. Banning a few generals isn't going to make it that much more complicated. There's really only 3-5 legends that should be up for consideration anyway IMO.

They will, on the other hand, spend AT LEAST 10 minutes before each game sideboarding after you see what everyone else's general is or has changed to. Given this, I don't really understand how a less strict banned list achieves what you want.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-30 12:20 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
trevor wrote:
Does anyone else find it strange that Rofellos was only recently unbanned (albeit, with the phrase, "we'll keep our eyes peeled" attached to him) and yet the anti-social generals like the ones I listed above aren't even on the watch list?


You're reading way, way, way too much into the "Watch List".

Many cards get discussed. Many others get watched (and yes, we've been looking at the powerful generals). Apparently mentioning a few of them was a mistake, as suddenly everyone has taken this to mean there's a formal process involving the Watch List. There isn't.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-30 12:37 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-28 2:48 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
People aren't going to spend 10 minutes before games figuring out whether or not their deck is legal, unless you don't check the ban list at least once every 3 months. Updating the banned list more times a year would have the effect you seem afraid of. In my experience, people usually show up with a legal deck. Banning a few generals isn't going to make it that much more complicated.

if the banned list continues to expand and more poeple (like myself) choose to adhere to only a "core" banned list, then yes people will end up spending time making deck-edits before games with people who adhere the the banned list as a whole.
Quote:
Many cards get discussed. Many others get watched (and yes, we've been looking at the powerful generals). Apparently mentioning a few of them was a mistake, as suddenly everyone has taken this to mean there's a formal process involving the Watch List. There isn't.

but there should be. if the watch list is at all relevant to the banned list and there is a "formal" process for developing the banned list, then the watch list should have similar formality...otherwise it is essentially meaningless and might as well not exist as a "watch list".

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-30 1:20 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
Quote:
f the banned list continues to expand and more poeple (like myself) choose to adhere to only a "core" banned list, then yes people will end up spending time making deck-edits before games with people who adhere the the banned list as a whole.


That why there shouldn't be an "official house rules" list.

The idea of a banned list and a official house banned list will get your 10 minutes of deck editing before every game as people who play with the house rules play against the people with just the banned list.

If you have a banned list, it's edited once every 3 months. If you are editing your deck every time you play someone, it's because you are trying to play cards that are banned in the first place.

I think it's pretty ridiculous to argue that a ban list expansion which only effects Deck Construction would extend the pre-game for every game by 10 minutes. The sideboard thing has to do that by itself (although I have no experience because my playgroup doesn't use sideboards.)


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