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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-27 9:33 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think one of the things that pushed Metalworker over the top was Esper. There are a LOT of really good cards for EDH in Esper, on top of getting Sharuum as an absolutely retarded general. I had Metalworker in my first draft of my Sharuum deck, and I took it out because I knew there was no way I would be able to play the deck more than once or twice without everyone instantly killing me after seeing it come down.

I plan on building a Rofellos deck soon, so we'll see how dumb that can get. I will say now though that I don't plan on putting as many infinite combos in it as possible - my goal is going to be to play stupid stuff far earlier than I have any right to do so (read: turn 3 Multani, etc).

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Current Generals:
Rafiq, Sharuum, Nekusar, Kresh, Mayael, Kaalia, Maelstrom Wanderer, Ghave, Ruhan, Mimeoplasm, Genju of the Realm, Phelddagrif, Derevi, Oloro, Jenara, Karrthus, Marath, Tariel, Riku, Karador, Numot, Damia, Sliver Overlord, Karn, Silver Golem


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-27 11:17 am 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-18 9:17 am
Age: Drake
Location: Luna
Quote:
I'd be happy to hear reports about games too. I appreciate you stating what you saw. I do have to say that 2 games should not end the testing though.


Not the end of testing by any means. Just a preliminary report.

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It's not vintage or legacy, it's EDH, baby!

I like that its a format that I can use Sol Ring in. A man can never have enough Sol Rings.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-27 11:46 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 5:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
Genomancer wrote:
Which leads very nicely into another significant point in the comparison between Rofellos and Metalworker: For Rofellos to be abused as a general, you have to reveal that on turn 0. Your opponents know it's coming, and know a fair bit about your deck: what to expect, what they have to deal with, and how to play around it.


Well, yes, but that works both ways. If I see you're playing Rofellos, I know to expect big green stuff. If I see you're playing Sharuum, though, I should expect lots of artifacts - and if you're playing lots of artifacts, it is logical to also expect that you're running Metalworker so as to best exploit them.

Quote:
Metalworker, on the other hand, is a much more random influence on the games. For starters, he generates much more mana than Rofellos in the early game, when it matters most.


But Metalworker is utterly subject to draw dependency. To generate an average 8 mana from the Metalworker, better than 60% of the rest of your deck must be artifacts. Assuming you run an Esper-coloured general, that gives you a maximum of 42 lands, instants and sorceries. Being restricted to 6-10 non-artifact spells is a very heavy price to pay in order to run a card you'll play by turn 5 no more than one game in eight.

Quote:
Metalworker being an artifact makes it much easier to recur him than Rofellos is in mono green.


I must be missing something here. How can anything in EDH be easier to recur than a general?


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-27 11:03 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-13 2:01 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Texas
DJ Catchem wrote:
Influx Of Mana - 0
Instant
Add GGG to your mana pool if it is your third turn or later.
Add 8 to your mana pool if it is your fourth turn or later. Reveal your hand.


Is it just me, or did anyone else notice that the above quoted card, produces 11 mana from turn four onward at the cost of revealing your hand and only produces 3 mana on turn three... all at the cost of 0 mana to play....

If you ask me, that is more busted than Black Lotus the king of bustedness.... and that is saying something... I think, this example of a card, is probably far more broken than the cards it is trying to make a point about... and by far more broken, I mean god level broken... so broken that God would have to come down and smite the head of R&D if he ever printed this card...

Okay, for those of you who say Rofellos isn't busted... I realize the following requires a god hand... but someone at an EDH table actually did pull it off once according to his own testimony after the unbanning of Rofellos... and this is the combo he performed:

turn1: Helix Pennicle
turn2: Rofellos
turn3: Mana Reflections
turn4: Seedborn Muse

Now assuming that he isn't disrupted.... he can win in theory at a four player table on his turn 5.... which is beyond broken... granted a 4 person table ups the possibility of him being disrupted by a great deal... but it is still a broken combo.

And I also just noticed someone mentioned a turn 3 win with Rofellos using Staff of Domination and two very specific land searches. The point is, Rofellos decks have a great many options, and getting a God hand, is very easy to do in such a deck.

Okay, now beyond my rantings above, personal opinions must be expressed. I have not had the opportunity to play against or with Rofellos or Metalworker. However, I have played a few decks in the past that utilize mana acceleration to one extent or another. And I find that Mana Acceleration, regardless of the color (or lack there of) happens to be one of the most important aspects of the game, especially in such a high powered environment as EDH. Now while I do not like the idea of cards like Metal Worker and Rofellos enabling stupid comboes that allow you to disable entire tables (multi-player games), perhaps banning the enablers is not the best possible method of preventing a combo from working.... I personally despised the fact that Wizards of the Coast decided to ban Sensei's Divining Top when Countertop was a huge part of the Extended metagame. However I understand why they say they did it. The thing is, banning an enabler is not the answer, the answer to a combo is to ban the peice that wins the combo.

So in the case of the Helix Pinnacle Combo I listed above, you don't ban Rofellos or the Mana Reflection.... You ban the Helix Pinnacle.

Now I don't advocate banning every single combo in existence, especially in a format as diverse as EDH. However there are particular comboes, that are problematic. Comboes that can in theory be run in just about every color for example are problematic in my opinion. For example, the Staff of Domination Combo, can be used to take an entire table out of the game (not quite sure how, but apparently it can)... so in essence, I would ban the Staff so that the combo cannot be used. Sure, allow people to be able to create infinite mana in any color they want to using doubling cube, or whatever method they have in mind... but don't let them take an entire table out of the game with a single card in any color that they want to.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-27 11:35 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Tharian wrote:
DJ Catchem wrote:
Influx Of Mana - 0
Instant
Add GGG to your mana pool if it is your third turn or later.
Add 8 to your mana pool if it is your fourth turn or later. Reveal your hand.


Is it just me, or did anyone else notice that the above quoted card, produces 11 mana from turn four onward at the cost of revealing your hand and only produces 3 mana on turn three... all at the cost of 0 mana to play....

If you ask me, that is more busted than Black Lotus the king of bustedness.... and that is saying something... I think, this example of a card, is probably far more broken than the cards it is trying to make a point about... and by far more broken, I mean god level broken... so broken that God would have to come down and smite the head of R&D if he ever printed this card...

Okay, for those of you who say Rofellos isn't busted... I realize the following requires a god hand... but someone at an EDH table actually did pull it off once according to his own testimony after the unbanning of Rofellos... and this is the combo he performed:

turn1: Helix Pennicle
turn2: Rofellos
turn3: Mana Reflections
turn4: Seedborn Muse

Now assuming that he isn't disrupted.... he can win in theory at a four player table on his turn 5.... which is beyond broken... granted a 4 person table ups the possibility of him being disrupted by a great deal... but it is still a broken combo.

And I also just noticed someone mentioned a turn 3 win with Rofellos using Staff of Domination and two very specific land searches. The point is, Rofellos decks have a great many options, and getting a God hand, is very easy to do in such a deck.

Okay, now beyond my rantings above, personal opinions must be expressed. I have not had the opportunity to play against or with Rofellos or Metalworker. However, I have played a few decks in the past that utilize mana acceleration to one extent or another. And I find that Mana Acceleration, regardless of the color (or lack there of) happens to be one of the most important aspects of the game, especially in such a high powered environment as EDH. Now while I do not like the idea of cards like Metal Worker and Rofellos enabling stupid comboes that allow you to disable entire tables (multi-player games), perhaps banning the enablers is not the best possible method of preventing a combo from working.... I personally despised the fact that Wizards of the Coast decided to ban Sensei's Divining Top when Countertop was a huge part of the Extended metagame. However I understand why they say they did it. The thing is, banning an enabler is not the answer, the answer to a combo is to ban the peice that wins the combo.

So in the case of the Helix Pinnacle Combo I listed above, you don't ban Rofellos or the Mana Reflection.... You ban the Helix Pinnacle.

Now I don't advocate banning every single combo in existence, especially in a format as diverse as EDH. However there are particular comboes, that are problematic. Comboes that can in theory be run in just about every color for example are problematic in my opinion. For example, the Staff of Domination Combo, can be used to take an entire table out of the game (not quite sure how, but apparently it can)... so in essence, I would ban the Staff so that the combo cannot be used. Sure, allow people to be able to create infinite mana in any color they want to using doubling cube, or whatever method they have in mind... but don't let them take an entire table out of the game with a single card in any color that they want to.


If between 4 people you can do 1 damage to Rofellos, 4 damage to the Seedborn Muse, or kill the enchantments, I dunno what to tell you. I realize Helix Pinnacle has shroud, but there are playable mass enchantment removal spells, and you could just kill the muse to have tons of time to find it. Hell, even without acceleration someone could WoG the board at that point. If he's playing a deck that is that tuned, I would hope that other people at the table are too.

Personally I find it absolutely hilarious that he won with Helix Pinnacle.

_________________
Current Generals:
Rafiq, Sharuum, Nekusar, Kresh, Mayael, Kaalia, Maelstrom Wanderer, Ghave, Ruhan, Mimeoplasm, Genju of the Realm, Phelddagrif, Derevi, Oloro, Jenara, Karrthus, Marath, Tariel, Riku, Karador, Numot, Damia, Sliver Overlord, Karn, Silver Golem


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-28 3:20 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 5:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
Tharian wrote:
And I also just noticed someone mentioned a turn 3 win with Rofellos using Staff of Domination and two very specific land searches.


You can do it with a single land search - preferably Kodama's Reach or Skyshroud Claim, to reduce the number of lands you need to draw - and any item from this list:

Burgeoning
Concordant Crossroads plus any 2-mana land search
Elvish Pioneer
Exploration
Fastbond
Krosan Wayfarer
Sakura-Tribe Scout
Search For Tomorrow
Skyshroud Ranger


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-28 5:23 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
This is all well and good, but you realize the only tutor he has for the staff in green would be Planar Portal, right? edit: okay he can use Skyship Weatherlight too.

Also, the most hilarious part about this is supposedly broken combo basically scoops to Jester's Cap removing the Staff and two other combo parts if all he did was build it to combo.

I don't see how it's that much different than the other busted antisocial combo decks that run rampant in the format like Zur and Jhoira. I've had Darksteel Colossus and Obliterate suspended on turn 3 before with a Clockspinning in my hand and enough mana to play and buy it back twice a turn. (Sol Ring, Izzet Signet, Academy, artifact land and a basic)

If you want to put a combo win into your mono green fat Stompy dude deck, I don't see how that's a problem. If you can't handle a creature at instant speed with a decent amount of regularity, I'd question how viable your deck is. And EVERYONE should be running ways to kill artifacts. If you're running mono blue, just counter the stupid thing. If you're running mono black there's at least two spells that let you blow up artifact and one of them is a reusable enchantment that probably won't be high on most player's kill lists.

_________________
Current Generals:
Rafiq, Sharuum, Nekusar, Kresh, Mayael, Kaalia, Maelstrom Wanderer, Ghave, Ruhan, Mimeoplasm, Genju of the Realm, Phelddagrif, Derevi, Oloro, Jenara, Karrthus, Marath, Tariel, Riku, Karador, Numot, Damia, Sliver Overlord, Karn, Silver Golem


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-28 5:42 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
Quote:
Also, the most hilarious part about this is supposedly broken combo basically scoops to Jester's Cap removing the Staff and two other combo parts if all he did was build it to combo.


The point is staff is not the only way for roffellos to win, and at least with metalworker you need to find all of the peices. I will grant the additional tutors help the Metalworker player, but Rofellos only needs to find 1 piece.


Quote:
If you want to put a combo win into your mono green fat Stompy dude deck, I don't see how that's a problem. If you can't handle a creature at instant speed with a decent amount of regularity, I'd question how viable your deck is. And EVERYONE should be running ways to kill artifacts. If you're running mono blue, just counter the stupid thing. If you're running mono black there's at least two spells that let you blow up artifact and one of them is a reusable enchantment that probably won't be high on most player's kill lists.


So should metalworker be unbanned because he is even easier to kill?

I really don't care what direction it goes, if Metalworker gets unbanned or Rofellos gets banned. They both do really stupid things if left unchecked.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-28 5:49 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ximenus wrote:
Quote:
Also, the most hilarious part about this is supposedly broken combo basically scoops to Jester's Cap removing the Staff and two other combo parts if all he did was build it to combo.


The point is staff is not the only way for roffellos to win, and at least with metalworker you need to find all of the peices. I will grant the additional tutors help the Metalworker player, but Rofellos only needs to find 1 piece.


Quote:
If you want to put a combo win into your mono green fat Stompy dude deck, I don't see how that's a problem. If you can't handle a creature at instant speed with a decent amount of regularity, I'd question how viable your deck is. And EVERYONE should be running ways to kill artifacts. If you're running mono blue, just counter the stupid thing. If you're running mono black there's at least two spells that let you blow up artifact and one of them is a reusable enchantment that probably won't be high on most player's kill lists.


So should metalworker be unbanned because he is even easier to kill?

I really don't care what direction it goes, if Metalworker gets unbanned or Rofellos gets banned. They both do really stupid things if left unchecked.


The difference, as multiple people have stated, is that Metalworker provides more mana, faster, in a deck built around him. On turn 3 you tap him and reveal 6 cards, netting 12 mana (comparable to the god hands people have been describing for Rofellos) and proceeding to play out most if not all of your hand. Hell, at that point, you can tutor for AND combo out with a Staff. You can also play him in any artifact heavy deck, whether that be Sharuum, Jhoira, or Karn, all of which are powerful and at least somewhat popular generals.

Rofellos was legal before too, he just couldn't be your general. I think people are missing that, somehow. Playing him as your general actually could be considered to make the deck weaker, since you can't play any of the good tutors as mono-green, whereas you could play GUB, play Vorosh, and get access to good tutors as well as having an alternate win condition general who happens to also give access to fun cards like Time Stretch.

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Current Generals:
Rafiq, Sharuum, Nekusar, Kresh, Mayael, Kaalia, Maelstrom Wanderer, Ghave, Ruhan, Mimeoplasm, Genju of the Realm, Phelddagrif, Derevi, Oloro, Jenara, Karrthus, Marath, Tariel, Riku, Karador, Numot, Damia, Sliver Overlord, Karn, Silver Golem


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-28 6:02 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-11 8:03 am
Age: Wyvern
do people not play counterspells? what about terror? skred? there are so many options to keep rofellos in check early on. now it wont always be possible due to the luck factor but in a multi player game there should be few occasions where by turn 3 or 4 a 2/2 green creature can run rampant on multiple other players. if you are letting rofellos go off without any resistance its your/the other players fault for not putting up a fight.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-28 6:27 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
Quote:
The difference, as multiple people have stated, is that Metalworker provides more mana, faster, in a deck built around him. On turn 3 you tap him and reveal 6 cards, netting 12 mana (comparable to the god hands people have been describing for Rofellos) and proceeding to play out most if not all of your hand. Hell, at that point, you can tutor for AND combo out with a Staff. You can also play him in any artifact heavy deck, whether that be Sharuum, Jhoira, or Karn, all of which are powerful and at least somewhat popular generals.


Is Jhoira a primarily Artifact deck? The one in our local meta hardly runs any.

Yes if you have all artifacts in you hand (I must add is pretty unlikely even for an artifact deck) you get to be rediculous... if nobody at your table is packing StP, Naturalize, Shattering Pulse, Diabolic Edict, Pongify (I tried to put answers for all colors). There is no good answer for Green itself to deal with Rofellos early. and even if someone has an answer to Rofellos, he will come back maybe turn 3 or 4 and get going again. StP is not as effective against Rofellos becuase he goes RFG anyway when you kill him.

Rofellos is just as bad as Metalworker and harder to deal with for good. Yes if you have the god hand (which requires all of your cards to be good for you) lets Metalworker be ridiculous. The rofellos combos only require 3 maybe 4 cards to be in your hand.

And if you play your entire hand and have no good way to draw back up, you are screwed either way. Someone at the table has a wrath or acroma's vengence, or shatterstorm, or fracturing gust, or Hurkyls Recall.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-28 6:44 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
My Jhoira deck, in its last version before I took it apart due to everyone hating me out left and right, ran 28 artifacts. I didn't run Metalworker, though I should have. You should suggest for him to try it. Fast mana makes that deck tick.

My Sharuum deck runs 44. I think it's reasonable to believe I'd have 4 or even 5 regularly. And it doesn't really matter which ones they are. It's either a huge beater or mana acceleration, all of which I'll happily play for "free" off Metalworker. I purposefully don't run infinite combos in the deck to avoid hate at the table, but you could combo out turn 3 via Sharuum, Sculpting Steel, and either Disciple or Soul Warden.

I'll give you Wrath, Vengeance, and maybe Fracturing Gust, but I've never seen a Hurkyl's Recall or a Shatterstorm in an EDH game. Who has those on turn 3? If they do, great, I just got blown out, and honestly, people will probably ignore me just because I got blown out.

Back to Rofellos: All the cards you named also answer Rofellos & Staff because you can destroy the staff in response to the first activation or Krosan Grip it if they have the mana to activate it twice, or you have to have 2 instant speed artifact destruction spells.

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Current Generals:
Rafiq, Sharuum, Nekusar, Kresh, Mayael, Kaalia, Maelstrom Wanderer, Ghave, Ruhan, Mimeoplasm, Genju of the Realm, Phelddagrif, Derevi, Oloro, Jenara, Karrthus, Marath, Tariel, Riku, Karador, Numot, Damia, Sliver Overlord, Karn, Silver Golem


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-28 7:16 am 

Joined: 2009-Mar-19 5:01 pm
Age: Wyvern
Artos wrote:
This is all well and good, but you realize the only tutor he has for the staff in green would be Planar Portal, right? edit: okay he can use Skyship Weatherlight too.


So what you're saying is, Rofellos decks can only play for a turn 4 win one game in four or five? No, that doesn't sound unreasonable or unfun at all.

Quote:
Also, the most hilarious part about this is supposedly broken combo basically scoops to Jester's Cap removing the Staff and two other combo parts if all he did was build it to combo.


Except you've already acknowledged that it's not possible to build a Rofellos deck solely to combo out with the Staff, and the only way it's consistently possible to activate a Jester's Cap by turn 3 is to play Rofellos yourself. Yay!


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-28 7:34 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
I'd like to point out that any deck that only gives itself one way to win is a terrible deck. I'm not trying to claim that the only way to break Rofellos is Staff of Domination. I'm only using that as a primary example.

I have to say I have changed my outlook on this based on this discussion. I used to think that both should be banned. I now think that things were fine before this list of bannings. Rofellos shouldn't be allowed to be used as a general. Consistent turn 2 accel is so good. Metalworker can be very strong early game, but there are enough early answers that a table of people should be able to take him out before he gets out of hand.

As far as hyrkl's recall two people in my playgroup run it because there are so much Equipment and other artifacts in our metagame.

Artos: Thank you for your input in this debate. I think you have definitely brought up some good points.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-28 7:51 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Jedit wrote:
Artos wrote:
This is all well and good, but you realize the only tutor he has for the staff in green would be Planar Portal, right? edit: okay he can use Skyship Weatherlight too.


So what you're saying is, Rofellos decks can only play for a turn 4 win one game in four or five? No, that doesn't sound unreasonable or unfun at all.


All of which can be significantly slowed down by killing Rofellos once. He has 1 toughness. It's really not that hard.

Jedit wrote:
Quote:
Also, the most hilarious part about this is supposedly broken combo basically scoops to Jester's Cap removing the Staff and two other combo parts if all he did was build it to combo.


Except you've already acknowledged that it's not possible to build a Rofellos deck solely to combo out with the Staff, and the only way it's consistently possible to activate a Jester's Cap by turn 3 is to play Rofellos yourself. Yay!


The point is you can kill two other different possible combo pieces that he may or may not be playing while you hit the Staff. If he's going to combo out turn 3 with the staff it's more likely than having it be his next topdeck. If he combos out turn 3, you can also kill the staff in response with normal artifact destruction as far as I can tell because he won't have enough mana to uptap the staff in response and tap it again.

The real problem, in my mind, is Staff if anything. The fact that the number one reason to play Staff is because you could combo it with Metalworker, Rofellos, Magus of the Coffers, or some other multi-mana producing creature, makes Staff look like the problem to me, rather than the mana producing cards.

I don't think Rofellos is broken without Staff of Domination (possibly even with Staff), no more so than any of the really stupid generals like Arcum, Zur, and Jhoira. Any of them are A) going to draw a lot of hate at a multiplayer table and B) going to do a lot of stupid stuff really early.

Honestly, like I've posted in other places, if you build Rofellos with the combo in there without a consistent way to get it, your multiplayer table is going to hate you out every time, and the longer it takes you to do it, the more likely they're going to stomp all over you and target you with all the counterspells and discard.

Ximenus: Thanks. I'm trying to play devil's advocate here, because I honestly really don't like infinite combos at all. I purposefully skip them in my decks, and if I built a Rofellos deck, it would be to get what green's supposed to be the best at: stupid amounts of mana acceleration to play giant Timmy cards. :)

_________________
Current Generals:
Rafiq, Sharuum, Nekusar, Kresh, Mayael, Kaalia, Maelstrom Wanderer, Ghave, Ruhan, Mimeoplasm, Genju of the Realm, Phelddagrif, Derevi, Oloro, Jenara, Karrthus, Marath, Tariel, Riku, Karador, Numot, Damia, Sliver Overlord, Karn, Silver Golem


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