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 Post subject: The Metalworker/Rofellos Thread
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 4:27 pm 
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I've seen a lot of people talk about Metalworker and Rofellos, and whether or not it should have been banned/unbanned. But there's not a thread for them yet, so here you have it.

The main points against Metalworker's banning seemed to have been Rofellos was simultaneously unbanned. Since both cards have a tendancy to add too much mana too early, and both cards require dedicating cards in the deck build for their ideal usuage (primarily forest mana base vs primarily aritfact deck) the comparision between them is pretty close. People are confused why, in the same B&R announcement, 2 cards have swapped places as the card that fits this description: "Cards that easily and cheaply produce great deals of mana are inherently dangerous to the health of the format."

The major differences are as follows:

1) Rofellos can be a general. This allows you, as a deckbuilder, to skip turn 2 drops in your deck since it's always assumed you'll be playing Rofellos. You can also maximize the 6 drop slot, since you're assuming that you'll be playing a forest the turn after you drop Rofellos. This is definitely a checkmark in the column of Rofellos having more potential to be broken

2) Rofellos comes out a turn earlier in this format. The only exception is if the Metalworker player has acceleration to go with the Metalworker (Mishra's Workshop). So Rofellos get's another checkmark for potential to be broken.

3) Metalworker can go in any color deck. But let's be honest, it's probably going to be a blue centered deck, and the deck will probably be primarily brown/chrome colored. That's a similar restriction to playing a mono-green deck, although the green deck can just as easily run all those artifacts, but not the blue spells. The blue deck is usually going to be more broken than the green deck though, so that's a checkmark for Metalworker.

4) Metalworker is also an artifact as well as a creature. Thus he is more vulnerable to an extra type of removal/disruption commonly ran in decks than Rofellos. Checkmark for Rofellos.

5) The redeployment for Rofellos as a general seems pretty useful as well since every Rofellos deck will be playing Staff of Domination, but Rofellos probably will have been removed by the time you have enough forests in play go off with the combo between staff and himself. So he has resilience later game and therefore combos more easily later game. Clear checkmark for Rofellos, because unless you're talking about single toughness removal (Mogg Fanatic, Crovax Accendant Hero/Evincar, Night of Souls Betrayal, etc.), Metalworker loses the resilience fight hands down.

6) Rofellos has been banned for quite some time now. Metalworker has not. This isn't actually an argument one way or another, but it can be agreed that Rofellos was never really given a chance as a general. But then, Metalworker couldn't be played as a general no matter what, so there's really no comparison here.

Comments?


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 Post subject: Re: The Metalworker/Rofellos Thread
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 4:59 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
trevor wrote:
Since both cards have a tendancy to add too much mana too early


This statement is the problem. It's a false equivalency.

Rofellos does not add too much mana too early. Absent boring-combo shenanigans, and assuming you're shunning the cycling lands, gaea's cradle, etc. it adds 3-4 mana early in the game. That's acceptable. Late in the game, he's capable of generating a lot more, but at that point it probably doesn't matter.

Metalworker in the early turns is often adding 8-10. That's a quantum level higher. In the late game, his impact is diminished, but that's not really at issue (ignoring Staff of Domination, etc).

Note that Rofellos was only banned as a general before. People had the opportunity to play him and did sometimes, but he didn't even rise to auto-include in green decks. That suggests that he may be good as a general, but no worse than Zur, Braids, Arcum, etc. Hence, he gets his shot.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 6:49 pm 
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Location: Calgary, AB
Short version:
1) Rofellos is one of the best generals, but no worse than others, and he was banned without any testing. We want to see if it's chicken little or ELE.

2A) Rofellos is good in the early turns, and very powerful on turns 6+, but your opponents know what they're up against: what they have to deal with, and it's not that hard to do.
2B) Metalworker is twice as powerful in the early turns, before opponents have time to prepare. It's made worse by the fact that they don't know when sideboarding/drawing their initial hand that they're going to have to deal with 8-10 mana on turn 3.


Long version:

As papa_funk says, this is more about treating Rofellos the same as other generals than it is a particular endorsement of the elf's fairness. I don't dismiss the combo shinanigans as irrelevant quite so quickly, but having looked at them and tried for a few weeks to break it as much as possible I don't think he's worse than other options.

So far, data seems to say that sideboards are a reasonable way of handling cheap/broken generals in "tournament" EDH, in which case the same things which handle Zur, Arcum, Braids, and Jhoira can also deal with Rofellos. Frankly, while he's a bit more dramatic when he wins than Braids or Zur, he's less consistent. He's slower than Arcum, but easier to kill. It's a wash. (I'm assuming that if you're playing antisocial, tournament EDH games where turn 3 combo wins are acceptable, you're using sideboards as appropriate.)

Which leads very nicely into another significant point in the comparison between Rofellos and Metalworker: For Rofellos to be abused as a general, you have to reveal that on turn 0. Your opponents know it's coming, and know a fair bit about your deck: what to expect, what they have to deal with, and how to play around it.

Metalworker, on the other hand, is a much more random influence on the games. For starters, he generates much more mana than Rofellos in the early game, when it matters most. Remember, Rofellos doesn't generate 6 mana on turn 3... he generates 3, and 4 on turn 4. Granted, that's still a load of mana... but people seem to be arguing that Rofellos generates 6 on turn 3, including the mana from the lands. That would be like saying that "metalworker generates nine mana on turn 3. Nine!"

Most importantly, the first 4-6 turns of an EDH game are more problematic in terms of potential for game-ruining broken-ness than later turns. Sure, on Turn 8 Rofellos probably taps for 6 mana... but at that point everyone's had a chance to get jockeyed for position and set to receive a charge. Metalworker does his thing before anyone has a chance to get ready.

But yes, it's possible Rofellos is too powerful although he certainly isn't worse than Braids. We're just giving the community the chance to prove it. Trevor's arguments are pretty well laid out. Metalworker being an artifact makes it much easier to recur him than Rofellos is in mono green.

G

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 7:01 pm 
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I'm assuming a Rofellos deck would play all forests. It's not unfair to assume that Rofellos will be consistently saying, "tap: add 3 green mana to your mana pool" the turn 3 pretty much every game he lives through turn 2. I hardly see how 6 mana on turn 3 basically every game is "acceptable". God forbid the Rofellos player drops a turn 3 Mana Reflection off their six mana and untaps with Rofellos alive. Best of all, as you said, he scales in the late game, making him worth redeploying. That's a pretty amazing IMO.

I do understand your point though, they really aren't the same card and can't be directly compared. Metalworker is a heck of a lot more explosive early and then burns out, where as Rofellos is quite the opposite. But also keep in mind that, without acceleration added into this mix, by the time Metalwork becomes tapped Rofellos has already tapped for 3 and is getting ready to tap for 4.

I'll make no attempt to compare Rofellos to Braid/Zur/Arcum. That's even less fair of a comparison than comparing Rofellos to Metalworker. I'm not alone in having done so; many other people have already made the comparision, hence the thread. And with the Metalworker/Rofellos comparison you're actually comparing similar effects. The only similarity between Braids and Rofellos is they're both Legendary.

I have played Rofello in a 5 color deck, which is certainly a less ideal deck for him. I have had a lot of success with him, especially when teaming him up with Survival of the Fittest and Anger. I can't fathom why you wouldn't play him in mono-green or even 2 color green if he preforms like I've seen in 5 color decks.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 7:12 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
I want to first say, My opinion is they both should be banned (even though I had just gotten my Metalworker before the banning)

Saying that Rofellos can't generate more than 3 mana early is just wrong. Green has so much land search that he should be producing four or possibly 5 the first turn he is active. I concede that this is less than an early metalworker.

Saying that since Metalworker is an artifact that he is easier to recur. He is also easier to remove from the game (Return to Dust, Dust to Dust). and Rofellos doesn't need a card to be recurred if he is a General. He's cheap enough that he can be played many times and very easily if Green runs the land search it should to accelerate it's general. Green also has plenty of regrowth effects that could get him recurred if the player wishes to let him go to the graveyard.

So if metalworker gets out turn 1 or 2, he can be a powerhouse, but I think Rofellos is just as bad, You still most likely have double the mana production of anyone at the table on turn three.

I have to say I'm not too worried about Rofellos being banned come the next change. I think he will. I also don't think I'll see him in my playgroup since only a couple of us play mono-colored. We don't have him handy and I'm not going to go out and buy one because you have to make a deck for him and that deck has to be broken to make it good.

I think the only other problem I can see is fastbond with Rofellos. If decks do start going crazy with both of these cards, how will everyone be able to tell what one was the problem child?

Just my 2 cents.

To the Mods: Thanks for keeping track of these forums so closely. One thing I think is great about this format is the fact that you guys actually pay attention to what people have to say.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 7:23 pm 
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Thanks for the response G. I certainly have to conceed the point that Metalworker is explosive in the early game. He's also a lot more devastating when you actually untap with him in play since, once he taps, the damage has pretty much already been done. I assume that was the primary reason he was banned.

I hadn't considered Rofellos as a general as "free information" that lets your opponents prepare for it. That's a good point. On the other hand, I'm not quite sure what preparational spell they could play, knowing he's coming, which would better deal with Rofellos than they couldn't already done before his summoning sickness wears off. Vampiric tutor comes to mind, but that would deal with either card before they get to tap. I've already said this, but Metalworker usually comes out a turn later. Since in either case you get an untap and a draw before Metalwoker/Rofellos goes online (barring lightning greaves, thousand year elixir, ect.) I feel that Metalworker is going to tend be easier to deal with given the extra turn before casting alone.

I'd just like to clarify one thing, in case I gave the wrong impression. I'm not arguing that Rofellos should be rebanned, so I hope I'm not coming off like I think that he should. I was happy he was unbanned. I just wasn't happy with Metalworker banned.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 8:28 pm 
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I don't really see a need to ban Metalworker. You can't use him the turn he comes out, and 2/3 of the hate in the game can hit him (most of which can be played as early as turns 1-3). Yeah, he can generate a lot of mana, but he is by no means unstoppable, and like I said you have to wait a turn until you can use him.

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 Post subject: Re: The Metalworker/Rofellos Thread
AgePosted: 2009-Mar-26 11:02 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
papa_funk wrote:
trevor wrote:
Since both cards have a tendancy to add too much mana too early


This statement is the problem. It's a false equivalency.

Rofellos does not add too much mana too early. Absent boring-combo shenanigans, and assuming you're shunning the cycling lands, gaea's cradle, etc. it adds 3-4 mana early in the game. That's acceptable. Late in the game, he's capable of generating a lot more, but at that point it probably doesn't matter.

Metalworker in the early turns is often adding 8-10. That's a quantum level higher. In the late game, his impact is diminished, but that's not really at issue (ignoring Staff of Domination, etc).

Note that Rofellos was only banned as a general before. People had the opportunity to play him and did sometimes, but he didn't even rise to auto-include in green decks. That suggests that he may be good as a general, but no worse than Zur, Braids, Arcum, etc. Hence, he gets his shot.


Late game he wins as a plain creature, too.

Someon in my playgroup has a Silvos deck. Sometimes a lucky draw gets him turn 2 Rofo - but we know he's busted early and gets you Multani turn 3.

One game we were playing pentagram and his wife was to my right and I was playing Captain Sisay with my staple on the table (Thousand Year Elixir ) with my general, and she has quite a few number of very large, non-trampling creatures on the board, including Multani. One of her opponents is as low enough life such that all of her creatures, minus multani, will kill him, but he has a Stuffy Doll naming her, and she is at low enough life such that Multani->Stuffy Doll->her will kill her. They are advising her to attack the other player with everything, play Silvos and pass the turn, because the Stuffy Doll player has taken near lethal Silvos damage. She knows I give very unbiased advise, whereas her husband does not, so she shows me her hand. She has green Kamahl in it, and here's the important part Rofellos on the board. I tell her she should play Kamahl, send Multani at the Stuffy Doll player, and everything else at her other opponent (her husband). She objects, "But I just have enough mana to play Silvos or him, I'm short of activating him." I say, just do it, trust me." She does, everyone else forgets Thousand Year Elixir untaps target creature, not just one it's controller owns, and after she declaes attacks, I untap her Rofellos, she taps him for about 12 mana, Overruns twice, kills the players opposite from her in one attack while only taking 1 point from Stuffy Doll. The others look at me and say, "Why did you do that? You just lost, we were playing pentagram!" And I said, "Yeah, but wasn't that fucking cool? Let's play another game."

You can't tell me Rofellos isn't great late game too. He's Gaea's Cradle/Coffers on legs.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-27 6:33 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-09 9:54 am
Age: Dragon
Location: New England
trevor wrote:
I hadn't considered Rofellos as a general as "free information" that lets your opponents prepare for it. That's a good point.


And on the same side of the coin, Metalworker arguably offers more damaging "free information", as you're revealing large parts of your hand to get use out of him. It's much easier to prepare to deal with what comes next when you *know* what comes next.

All in all, I still find this banning objectionable, since there was very little public knowledge as to why it was a problem. (I would love to hear some *specifics* from the advisory board as to what made this decision...this might go a long way towards easing the minds of the EDH community.) There didn't seem to be a huge public outcry against the card...in fact, there didn't seem to be one at all.

The Rofellos un-ban certainly rubs salt in the wound. Frankly, the mana production comparison is fairly irrelevant. Both produce obscene amounts of mana in the early game when built to do so; while 'Worker potentially has the ability to produce *more*, Rofellos produces it *quicker*. If WotC prionted the following card:

Influx Of Mana - 0
Instant
Add GGG to your mana pool if it is your third turn or later.
Add 8 to your mana pool if it is your fourth turn or later. Reveal your hand.

How often do you really think the second option would be preferred over the first? The point is, both cards get their prospective players into dangerous territory in the early game. Both can be equally damaging, and there isn't a huge difference between the two. A good deck-builder can come up with a turn-3 six mana play that is as strong as any turn 4 10+ mana play.

When you add the fact that Rofellos now comes with essentially a built-in tutor, that in my eyes makes him stronger on may levels.

It seems to me that these two cards were banned and unbanned for the exact same reasons, which is a massive contradiction.

--->DJ


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-27 7:28 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
CardName: Metalworker
Cost: 3
Type: Artifact Creature - Construct
Pow/Tgh: 1/2
Rules Text: T Reveal any number of artifact cards in your hand. Add 2 to your mana pool for each card revealed this way.
Set/Rarity: Urza's Destiny Rare


Its an Academy on roids the first turn or 2 you use it. Nuff said

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-27 7:45 am 
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Comment:

Green was not strong enough to warrant the ban on rofellos. But the committee underestimates what fastbond crucible has done for green. It's not weak enough to get rofellos/staff of domination guaranteed as well as fastbond/crucible... But dude if green is the new blue I'm down for a while. Getting tired of blue anyhow.

And metalworker goes online way faster than rofellos, rofellos can't get online to infinite until turn 5 so he kind of self-regulates himself to be a resource advantage weenie creature. There's a big difference between land/mana vault/metalworker and whatever shennanegans rofellos does...because in the right deck land/mana vault/metalworker turn 1 is close to a guaranteed win while green you're still looking at fastbond for these sorts of degenerate examples and rofellos totally isn't online yet.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-27 8:08 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
Quote:
And metalworker goes online way faster than rofellos, rofellos can't get online to infinite until turn 5 so he kind of self-regulates himself to be a resource advantage weenie creature


Turn One : Suspend Land Search Card
Turn Two : Play Roffellos
Turn Three get land with suspend card, play another land, tap forests to play skyshoud claim. Tap Rofellos for 6, play staff of domination (3 floating) Untap Rofellos. gg

two land search (granted, speciffic ones) cards and one staff = Turn 3 win against the whole table unless someone has disruption.

Granted, you can do this turn 2 with metalworker by way of mana vault metalworker on turn 1. Same amount of cards, still early enough that if someone didn't start with the answer it's almost certainly over.


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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-27 8:31 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-09 9:54 am
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The point is that either card can enable some power plays to hit way earlier than they should. Both have strengths and weaknesses, but both can make things happen sooner.

And that's what acceleration *should* do. The question here is why one is okay while the other isn't.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-27 8:35 am 
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Observed Rofellos as a General last night and am ready to report.

We played a 3 player game using what I consider my best EDH deck.

The opponent playing Rofellos is what I could consider to be one of the best players and deck builders in our group with access to necessary cards to build the deck as well as it could be built.

So competency and card access were a non issues. I considered this the best Rofellos deck that could or would be built in our play group.

We played with 3 people because one on one wouldn't be a proper test of what is rightly a multi player format.

Game 1 he won. Rofellos, Gauntler of Power, Akroma's Memorial, a swarm of tokens backed by Overrun. The Rofellos player won handily. Did Rofellos make the differance? Yes. Did he get a god hand? Absolutly. Rofellos let him power out Gauntlet then Memorial. But that's why Rofellos is played, to power out things.

I demanded a Game 2, same players, same decks. I wanted further observation.

Game 2 was not determined by Rofellos. I would have won if I were a more competant player. The Rofellos player won, but he wasn't insane the way the first game was.

The differance?

Game 1 the Rofellos got a god hand. Some things can't be helped. Without a god hand, with a 4th player, outcome of game 1 might have been very different. But Magic has lots of variables.

I asked the Rofellos player honestly if he thought Rofellos was broken and worthy of being banned. He mentioned the pure power of Rofellos, but said, no, he didn't think so.

I agree. Rofellos is very potent. No question about that. But I agree that he should not be banned.

I'm happy to listen to opinions on Rofellos, but I'd much prefer if they were coupled with observations or reports on games.

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AgePosted: 2009-Mar-27 9:19 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
Quote:
I'm happy to listen to opinions on Rofellos, but I'd much prefer if they were coupled with observations or reports on games.


I'd be happy to hear reports about games too. I appreciate you stating what you saw. I do have to say that 2 games should not end the testing though.

I'm I just crazy thinking the Metalworker isn't a ton different than Rofellos? I agree that there are a couple of things both good for the Metalworker player and bad.


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