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 Post subject: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-23 7:11 am 
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Joined: 2012-May-11 4:47 pm
Age: Drake
I'm bored stiff, so I decided to cause misery, tears, badly made arguments, well made but hopeless arguments, and someone coming in as the the voice of reason to save the day. I will provoke another banlist discussion thread.

Cards to come off:

Protean Hulk: Kokusho is off the the banned list, yet I'd easily say Koko is a mean, mean mother when compared to Hulk. Sure, there are morons across the planet who would abuse it, but the same could be said about hundreds of cards that have never even been seriously considered for banning, as well as several that just came off (note: just is a very relative word). Also, it might be a weird turn-off for new players, "It's a very interesting effect on a big fat green dude, why the heck is it banned?".

Painter's Servant: I still don't get why this is still banned. I mean, yeah, it can be mean with a couple cards in EDH, but the the vast majority of those are either mean enough on their own (Iona, Deathgrip, Llawan) or they are just bad cards without PS (Grindstone, all bad color hosers). The the only legit cards with which it theoretically poses a problem are pretty much the the "psuedo guild leaders" from the the Ravnica block, and out of those:
- Momir Vig and Teysa could be problematic.
- Tibor and Lumia, Circu, and Agrus Kos could be far more playable
- The the others are fine either way.

Staff of Domination: This is a card that could fit in any EDH deck, but is only problematic in a few of them, if they run one (or more) of two cards. However, if we should start banning based off infinite mana combos, Palinchron, Mana Reflection, and others of that mold should go years beforehand.

Primeval Titan: I really couldn't care any less, but I'd love to see the discussion on it.

Kokusho, the Evening Star: I get that his Gen-Ban is only a precaution measure, but that doesn't mean I dislike it any less.

CARDS TO GO ON THE BANNED LIST:
Survival of the Fittest: EDH is a 100 card singleton format, which means that cards shouldn't be able to get half the deck, right? Games shouldn't be linear and the same every time, they should have different outcomes, right? There shouldn't be a way to get each creature into the the yard, right? Survival breaks all of that by itself, and can go in any deck with green in it, which happens to be the top ramping color anyway.

Island: It enables blue.

BIack Lotus: Anyone who's read anything will know the real reason I posted this.

Have fun discussing all this crap.

_________________
I propose that to solve all the format's problems now and for ever, ban every card in the game that says "library", "search", "destroy", "exile", "all", "battlefield", "graveyard", "draw", "untap", or "damage" on the card. Also, anything with a semi-questionable color identity, anything that is remotely comparable to something on the banlist, and anything that brings up conflicts or loopholes in the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-23 1:01 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I agree with all of the "unban" cards except PT, and I disagree with all cards on the "add to the banned list" ones

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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-23 1:08 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think Consecrated Sphinx should get the ban hammer. I don't think any of those cards should be banned or unbanned.

I would like to see Island banned.


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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-23 2:55 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Master Baiter wrote:
Island: It enables blue.


Can we just go ahead and lock this thread?


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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-23 3:03 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
cryogen wrote:
Master Baiter wrote:
Island: It enables blue.

Can we just go ahead and lock this thread?

OK I know "ban Island" is a tired meme at this point, and I can understand if the mods want to keep Rules Discussion a bit more serious... but I missed where using lame joke = lock thread immediately.

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"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-24 1:44 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Protean Hulk: This being banned, while the more degenerate in pretty much every way Tooth and Nail remains unbanned is totally absurd and contradictory. They're both big splashy multitutors and will instantly win the controller the game if that's what they're trying to do. Heck, Hulk actually requires another card to sacrifice it, (not a big deal, but still, two cards is harder to assemble then one) and also requires far less optimal card choices in order to combo. You could, for example,theoretically play T&N, Kiki-Jiki, and Zealous Conscripts in a G/R deck each on their own merits and "just so happen" to have a combo. The same really can't be said about any of the hulk combos I've ever seen.
To sum up: I agree with the RC that T&N shouldn't be banned and I think the same logic should apply to hulk being unbanned as well.

Painter's Servant: I've stated my thoughts on this 100 times. Basically, yes, this being banned is both strange and silly.

Staff of Domination: Eh... I think this ends up being incidentally degenerate far more often then most cards... And when cards are making games unfun without that being the intent of their controller, that's an issue. Could really go either way, IMHO, which makes me lean towards keeping the status quo. It already had it's chance to be legal, and even when people tried to use it fairly, they almost always failed.

Primeval Titan: This already had about 2000 pages written about it. I had it's trial, It was found guilty, and sentenced appropriately. It's the worst kind of commander card. It seems to be fair if powerful, yet corrupts entire meta games around it. Basically, it actually did in practice what people always claimed Koko Puffs would do. (And, BTW, failed to actually do since it's return.)

Survival of the Fittest: This really shouldn't be legal. But "It's a toolbox card!"
No, it's a "Every Game in which this in drawn is identical card." It's also very combo centric... but that's almost incidental to it just being unfun in general. It's also tutored for *far* to often... When you're tutoring for a tutor? You know there is a problem. Ban this card... Fauna Shaman is an 100% fair replacement and what this card should have been to begin with.

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-24 2:09 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Master Baiter wrote:
Island: It enables blue.

Can we just go ahead and lock this thread?

OK I know "ban Island" is a tired meme at this point, and I can understand if the mods want to keep Rules Discussion a bit more serious... but I missed where using lame joke = lock thread immediately.

Because the OP admitted to starting this thread out of boredom, and there is nothing original about this thread:

Master Baiter wrote:
Protean Hulk: Kokusho is off the the banned list, yet I'd easily say Koko is a mean, mean mother when compared to Hulk. Sure, there are morons across the planet who would abuse it, but the same could be said about hundreds of cards that have never even been seriously considered for banning, as well as several that just came off (note: just is a very relative word). Also, it might be a weird turn-off for new players, "It's a very interesting effect on a big fat green dude, why the heck is it banned?".

Painter's Servant: I still don't get why this is still banned. I mean, yeah, it can be mean with a couple cards in EDH, but the the vast majority of those are either mean enough on their own (Iona, Deathgrip, Llawan) or they are just bad cards without PS (Grindstone, all bad color hosers). The the only legit cards with which it theoretically poses a problem are pretty much the the "psuedo guild leaders" from the the Ravnica block, and out of those:
- Momir Vig and Teysa could be problematic.
- Tibor and Lumia, Circu, and Agrus Kos could be far more playable
- The the others are fine either way.

Staff of Domination: This is a card that could fit in any EDH deck, but is only problematic in a few of them, if they run one (or more) of two cards. However, if we should start banning based off infinite mana combos, Palinchron, Mana Reflection, and others of that mold should go years beforehand.


Legitimate discussion, but still the same discussion that's been beaten to death.

Master Baiter wrote:
Primeval Titan: I really couldn't care any less, but I'd love to see the discussion on it.


There have been countless pages written about his banning, both for and against.

Master Baiter wrote:
Kokusho, the Evening Star: I get that his Gen-Ban is only a precaution measure, but that doesn't mean I dislike it any less.


Not liking a banned card isn't a good reason to unban one.

Master Baiter wrote:
Survival of the Fittest: EDH is a 100 card singleton format, which means that cards shouldn't be able to get half the deck, right? Games shouldn't be linear and the same every time, they should have different outcomes, right? There shouldn't be a way to get each creature into the the yard, right? Survival breaks all of that by itself, and can go in any deck with green in it, which happens to be the top ramping color anyway.


Legitimate

Master Baiter wrote:
Island: It enables blue.


This alone makes it seem like a troll post.

Master Baiter wrote:
BIack Lotus: Anyone who's read anything will know the real reason I posted this.


Not really. Perhaps explain.


In my opinion, these threads have been beaten to death, and there is absolutely nothing original being added to the cries of "Ban Staff/Hulk/Servant" that the RC hasn't heard already. Adding cards to a discussion because of a personal bias or just to create a discussion which has already happened ad nauseam is pointless. Survival is the only card on that list that we should be discussing out of the post.


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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-24 2:25 am 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Thanks for having our back, cryogen, but this thread is fine. It's true that all these topics have been covered many times before, and that "ban islands" is just as tired as "the cake is a lie", and I don't get the Black Lotus thing either, but this sort of thread is exactly what the Rules Discussion forum should be for. We haven't seen a general ban list discussion thread for a while. It's usually more useful for people with problems to start a thread with a more specific topic, but feedback like this is valuable to the RC anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-24 3:12 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
BKM is right that actual discussion is good. That said, every "Ban Island" post that I have to read or scroll past is a fraction of a second which I'll never get back, and life is finite.

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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-24 4:14 am 
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Joined: 2011-May-02 11:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
There are some bannings I understand, and some that I don't. I haven't been playing for all that long (since ROE), so my experience of these cards is limited.

Protean Hulk - Given the cards that are legal already, this one is a puzzler. I would totally use this in my mono-green to get Budoka Gardener, Magus of the Library, and Fauna Shaman. Or any of a number of non-stupid choices.
Is that a good complex of stuff? Sure, but not warping the format.

Staff of Domination - EDH being the 'big-man' format makes this totally logical

Painter's Servant - I don't know. What legitimate, non-awful plays are impossible with this banned? In other words, what are you missing by not having this?


Cards that should be banned:

Survival of the Fittest - no real opinion, as I don't think I've ever seen this in play

Iona, - I thought this was just a big, crazy flier when I put it in my mono-white all-flyers EDH. Alas, this card is super polarizing.

Me: I'll play Iona, calling Green.
Table freaks out - "No, call Blue. That Blue player is about to win!"
Me: But he's mono-blue. He won't be able to play anything!
Table: (crickets)

Vorinclex - I would love to see this get some consideration. It's not that he's SO horrible. He just causes so much misery and angst around the table when he comes into play. It's the definition of a card that lessens the fun of a game for everyone except it's controller. Especially if the win is not coming immediately.

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Current EDH Decks

Color Pie Project

White: Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant
Blue: Braids, Conjurer Adept
Black: Anowon, the Ruin Sage
Red: Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Green: Omnath, Locus of Mana


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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-24 4:51 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
BKM is right that actual discussion is good. That said, every "Ban Island" post that I have to read or scroll past is a fraction of a second which I'll never get back, and life is finite.

Unless you are a lich, or vampire or other sort of eternal undead. (or holy undead...)


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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-24 4:52 am 

Joined: 2009-Nov-28 7:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Nope.


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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-24 4:55 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The_Dr_B wrote:
Protean Hulk - Given the cards that are legal already, this one is a puzzler. I would totally use this in my mono-green to get Budoka Gardener, Magus of the Library, and Fauna Shaman. Or any of a number of non-stupid choices.
Is that a good complex of stuff? Sure, but not warping the format.


We let a guy in my group play Hulk for a game because he didn't know it was banned. It was mid-game, though, so we were like "screw it, let's let him use it, see where this goes...".

I was playing a deck that had Puppeteer Clique, Beacon of Unrest and sac outlets... a turn cycle later and I killed everyone easilly with mana and cards to spare. Everyone, including me, was like "Oh. THAT'S why that's banned. We all agreed the dude could keep it in his deck if he wanted to. He opted not to keep playing it.

That said, I am a HUGE fan of Hulk and wish I could use him more. I play him in my big Highlander and he's really only TRULY degenerate in that deck when I have Recurring Nightmare online with him as well. The rest of the time he's amazing but absolutely fair.

Tooth and Nail is in some ways worse - it's a one-card-combo if you got that route, but my experience leads me to believe that:

A) If you're going for the inifinte combo Tooth and Nail is more problematic
BUT...
B) If you're not going for an insta-win combo, Hulk is infinitely worse.

Being a creature is the primary reason for this. You pretty much have to exile him immediately on sight or he will dominate a game the way Koko used to be accused of and Prime Time is. Personally I'd LOVE to see him unbanned, but in no uncertain terms, I also believe it would be a mistake. He really is to game-warping to be fair even if you don't combo off with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-24 5:00 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Staff. Its an enabler for degenerate decks but a Swiss army's knife for every other deck.

But more so I would like a heads up on what cards are being looked at for banning/unbanning. I hear talk of a watch list... just so I know whether to invest in more consecrated sphinxes or what not.

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 Post subject: Re: Yet Another Random Banlist Discussion Thread
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-24 5:11 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
Thanks for having our back, cryogen, but this thread is fine. It's true that all these topics have been covered many times before, and that "ban islands" is just as tired as "the cake is a lie", and I don't get the Black Lotus thing either, but this sort of thread is exactly what the Rules Discussion forum should be for. We haven't seen a general ban list discussion thread for a while. It's usually more useful for people with problems to start a thread with a more specific topic, but feedback like this is valuable to the RC anyway.

If you're happy with it great. It's not like anyone is required to read and respond (other than the RC, of course). Personally, I just tire of seeing the same arguments over and over, and some of the responses from the RC leave me feeling that it's highly unlikely that those cards are going to get removed from the list, so why bother restating what's been said before.

The ban Islands bit is mainly what changed my stance from read and move on to lock thread, because it felt like overall the post was trolling out of boredom.


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