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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 12:10 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Does that make Coalition Victory a 15 card combo?

8 lands for the Victory
5 more lands for a 5c General
+ the General
+ the Victory

Or a 10 card combo if the General was cast the turn before?

Most people see it as a less-than-two card combo. Once you hit 8 mana you are going to have all 5 basics out because your deck works that way.

It isn't even considered a 5 card combo when you need at least 5 cards out to win (Dual, Dual, Dual, General, Victory).


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 12:11 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-17 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
RobPro wrote:
Uh, you really posted this?


Uh, you really posted THIS?

RobPro wrote:
But it's not a two card combo. It's, at the very minimum, a 7 card combo unless you count on having mana sources that produce more than one mana.


Its a two card combo. End of story. Which is simple for any Blue/Black, or even just Monoblue deck to assemble every game. And the best part is, the second combo piece isnt even set in stone. Just counting Time Warp, there are 3 seperately named cards that do the same thing. I could build a deck that did this turn 5 AT THE LATEST, EVERY GAME (barring disruption, of course.)


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 12:24 pm 
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If you think the resources it takes to play a combo don't matter, then... well, I can't really say anything without flaming you, so I just won't say anything.

Why do you think the effort it takes to get a combo into play doesn't matter? I think if someone can pull off a panoptic lock in a 4 player game without getting disrupted, they deserve to win and were probably going to win anyways. It is a slow combo that your opponent(s) has plenty of time to respond to, and it can't happen early game unless you draw every piece of artifact acceleration currently legal.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 12:25 pm 
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TrialbyFire wrote:
(barring disruption, of course.)


I think this is important. If nobody you play against runs any kind of disruption, it doesn't matter what your combo is.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 12:28 pm 
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tarnar wrote:
It isn't even considered a 5 card combo when you need at least 5 cards out to win (Dual, Dual, Dual, General, Victory).


I would say this is accurate. You would need enough mana to play your general and 3 duals, so whatever the minimum is for that. It can be harder to pick up on what someone playing a 5-Color general is doing, especially if you hold the dual with the last two landtypes in your hand until your turn starts.

However, I don't like the idea of a card that says you "win" the game, unless there is only one opponent left. If the card said "target player loses the game," I wouldn't have a problem with it.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 12:45 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
RobPro wrote:
If you think the resources it takes to play a combo don't matter, then... well, I can't really say anything without flaming you, so I just won't say anything.

(in your best 300 voice)
THIS!!! IS!!! EDH!!!

Resources are plentiful.

Games are long.

The mere existence of any answer does not fix broken cards and the combos they make.

I anticipate a lot of disruption at an EDH game. But sometimes the other 3+ players won't have an answer. In the case of Mirror they get *one* turn to dig it up. You still haven't named a 5 mana permanent that wins any size of game if it sits on the table for one turn round.

Coalition Victory is a good example of a pseudo-one card combo that takes a lot of resources to develop and execute. More resources than Panoptic + Time Warp. It should be answerable at a multiplayer table. Counterspells, bounce the general, destroy the only Swamp they have, plenty of answers. It is still nothing but boring & broken.

Coalition Victory is somewhere between a one and two card combo in EDH given the nature of the format. That you won't concede that point is hindering this discussion.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 1:44 pm 
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Combos are described by the number of non-mana generating pieces requires to use them. This is because the primary relevance of the "number of combo pieces" is how hard it is to find all of them, and mana-requirements can be solved in many ways so don't factor significantly into the relative difficulty of doing so.

This convention is many years old and used in every magic format, so if you don't accept it then please by all means

RobPro wrote:
I just won't say anything


The mana cost of the combo pieces is obviously relevant, but would be described as a "Two card, 10 mana combo." Or, in this case, "Two card combo requiring 5 mana and two turns." Since one of those two pieces can be satified by approximately 10-15 different cards to win the game immediately, that makes it pretty easy to assemble in EDH as compared to other game winning combos. So Panoptic Mirror is incredibly overpowered in EDH.

All of this has been said repeatedly already though, and if you think that expecting EDH players to have artifact destruction available at all times, starting turn 4, would make the format better... you have a very different vision of this format than most people who play it.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 2:47 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
um...Prismatic Omen + Transguild Courier, gg?

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 3:54 pm 
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Genomancer wrote:
Combos are described by the number of non-mana generating pieces requires to use them. This is because the primary relevance of the "number of combo pieces" is how hard it is to find all of them, and mana-requirements can be solved in many ways so don't factor significantly into the relative difficulty of doing so.


My point is, in a highlander format you aren't able to run 4x of the best fixers or tutors, etc. and I think this -does- factor into the difficulty of resolving certain combos. While this combo can be tough to deal with, the fact that there is a turn for anyone on the table to deal with it before it becomes a problem mitigates its effectiveness.

I think EDH players should have ways to deal with permanents at all times beyond turn 4. Whether they have it in hand, a way to get it, or whatever, they shouldn't be praying someone else at the table was playing blue. As artifacts are some of the easiest permanents to splash, it's not unreasonable to think people might run some artifact kill.

I am not saying Mirror/Time whatever is a bad combo, just that it is only another combo and nothing special.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 3:55 pm 
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tarnar wrote:
I anticipate a lot of disruption at an EDH game. But sometimes the other 3+ players won't have an answer. In the case of Mirror they get *one* turn to dig it up. You still haven't named a 5 mana permanent that wins any size of game if it sits on the table for one turn round.


I would rather run Tireless Tribes and About Face.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-17 4:29 pm 

Joined: 2008-Jul-22 8:27 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Olathe, Ks
RobPro wrote:
I would rather run Tireless Tribes and About Face.


Tribe in a Doran deck :twisted:

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-18 1:18 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
I think the point isn't that the combo is "easily" disrupted by artifact destruction. I think the point is that there are many sorceries/instants that can devastate a complete table of players if put into the mirror making the game not fun. The point of EDH is to have a fun format and to do some crazy things in a casual environment. The Mirror does crazy things, but it does it in a way that is definitely no fun for anyone playing against it. I'm not saying you shouldn't play with powerful cards. I am saying that you don't even need a great combo card with it to make the game start to be not fun. The fact that the format can and is most of the time slower than the other formats makes it more fun because your cool stuff can develop (given you are political and can prevent everyone from trying to disrupt you). Having a card that can combo with tons of spells (heck even Stone Rain 1v1 would be devastating) and the fact that it can come out so quickly makes it not fun to play against.

I hope this rambling post makes sense. I know I started the question, but I feel like the arguments made against letting the mirror play are very strong.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-18 6:57 pm 
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Ximenus wrote:
Having a card that can combo with tons of spells (heck even Stone Rain 1v1 would be devastating) and the fact that it can come out so quickly makes it not fun to play against.


If this were the only reasoning why this card was not allowed, I can think of dozens of others that should be banned but aren't. I don't think this card is any better than Tinker, Erayo, Braids, etc. and they can do their damage a turn or two sooner than Panoptic Mirror and they don't require the aid of another spell to imprint.

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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-18 8:32 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-04 6:50 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Grand Rapids
Tinker - While powerful, I don't think I've ever seen it make a game not fun, even with a lot of good artifacts to search for.

Braids - I can say I've been on the receiving end on this quite a few times (Not as a General). When Braids gets out early, it can be crippling if not a game win. I think if anything should happen to Braids I think it should be the Roffellos treatment.

Erayo - I have to say that I have avoided playing this guy as a general because I know about 2/3 of my playgroup can't stand Blue control. I think if you can get him out and flipped, he can be unfun as well. It's not good when you just can't do anything to get back into the game because not only does your first spell get countered, but the next spell most likely by a card in hand. I haven't played against him, but I would suspect that would not be fun either.

All that being said, you can't really argue that any of those cards can combo as efficiently as the Mirror. Especially when you don't even need to Imprint on it until you are about to put the ability on the stack. It's just too good.

RobPro: You seem very upset about this. Is there a particular reason you are so passionate about this subject (or this card?)

I have to say that while I may have been confused when I initially saw some of the cards on the banned list (CoW and Panopric Mirror in particular), after reading the arguments, I can't really fault the rules team for their decisions.


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AgePosted: 2009-Feb-18 9:07 pm 
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Ximenus wrote:
RobPro: You seem very upset about this. Is there a particular reason you are so passionate about this subject (or this card?)


I am not "upset," I'm just trying to convey my point that this card isn't really ban worthy (in my opinion, etc.). I don't think it's a particularly unbalancing card, as I have hopefully managed to get across in my post, and there's no reason to have a larger banlist than is necessary.

I would rather see cards that allow noninteractive, "instant-win" combos be banned than cards that are more or less fair, take a while to setup, and have at least one turn before they can go off so other players can respond. I could see arguments for Erayo, Tinker, Mishra's Workshop, and Tolarian Academy to be banned (and some of them are in the other Highlander format), but I really just don't see it with Panoptic Mirror.

So, don't think I'm getting frazzled, it's just a discussion. I'm only trying to get across my point of view, and it seems to keep getting obscured as people respond to my posts.

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