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 Post subject: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 9:22 am 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-04 4:01 am
Age: Wyvern
i love braids, i sincerely believe she isn't broken as one of 99 cards. if the edh rule guys really think its too hard for the edh community to seperate between banned as commander and banned as 1in99 then well, thanks for relieving my brain off of that load.

anyway... braids sais bye.

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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 9:27 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Serious question for the people upset about this announcement. Does your playgroup love playing against Braids and Rofellos anywhere near the amount you enjoy playing them?

I know that since Yisan, the Wanderer Bard became a thing, the last card I want to see is Rofellos. I won't miss him at all, and I have multiple decks that play more removal than you can shake a stick at.

Braids is just a miserable card to play against, even in the 99. She's way too frustrating in anything with a reliable recursion engine and this is EDH, the land of reliable recursion engines. Grave Pact can be miserable, as can all the variants, but at least they're difficult to get back if you kill them.

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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 9:28 am 
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Joined: 2011-Oct-31 7:06 pm
Age: Dragon
If you truly want to play with Braids, she is legal as a 1 of in Duel Commander. Not the same but at least she's playable?

Sorry for your loss.

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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 9:33 am 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern
I'd much rather play against Braids then against the UGx goodstuff ramp decks that are becoming more and more common because land destruction and now I guess stax are being forced out of the format by people who think a ban list will be able to stop players that like to play degenerate decks from doing so.

Like Sheldon said Braids and Rofellos were only banned because they're too strong as generals. That's really the only issue here.

Any debate about this new announcement is simply dependent on whether the decision to consolidate into one list was justified. I personally do not think so.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it".


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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 9:34 am 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-04 4:01 am
Age: Wyvern
Jivanmukta wrote:
Sorry for your loss.


Thanks. :_(
It hurts. a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 9:44 am 

Joined: 2008-Jun-20 7:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
FZA wrote:
I'd much rather play against Braids then against the UGx goodstuff ramp decks that are becoming more and more common because land destruction and now I guess stax are being forced out of the format by people who think a ban list will be able to stop players that like to play degenerate decks from doing so.

Like Sheldon said Braids and Rofellos were only banned because they're too strong as generals. That's really the only issue here.

Any debate about this new announcement is simply dependent on whether the decision to consolidate into one list was justified. I personally do not think so.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it".


The ban list isn't designed to stop players from playing degenerate decks. The RC posts that again and again (especially Sheldon in his SCG articles).

Here are the reasons cards get banned along with justification for Rofellos and Braids:
* Creates Undesirable Games/Game Situations. - Braids definitely falls in this bucket, and Rofellos can too.
* Warps The Format Strategically. - Both of these fall in this bucket by forcing you to play significantly more removal to keep permanents on the board (Braids) or slow the opponent down to a semi normal pace (Rofellos). Spot removal is good for the format but when certain cards force you to start drastically changing your decks and turn every game into Archenemy, that's a problem.
* Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly. - Rofellos is nearly the poster boy of this one. The only reason he was okay in the 99 is because it was a little harder to do it consistently.
* Interacts Badly With the Structure of Commander. - Both of them hit this one because they're broken as generals.
* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry. - Nah, they're not cheap but they aren't that bad.

Now, I can see why people are upset about Metalworker being unbanned. I can honestly say it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but then again I may not even put it in my Sharuum deck because there are more reliable ways to generate tons of mana. As long as the Bomberman combo is legal, it makes Metalworker less exciting.

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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 10:22 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
There are bunches of cards in this format that are occasionally and situationally bonkers--and that's okay. After much discussion, we agreed that Metalworker would be one of those "occasionally" cards, not an "always" one.

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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 10:26 am 

Joined: 2013-Jul-19 2:59 am
Age: Wyvern
I have no problem at all with MW being unbanned. The amount of hoops you have to jump through to break it is enough that it's a fair card.


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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 11:02 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
FZA wrote:
I have no problem at all with MW being unbanned. The amount of hoops you have to jump through to break it is enough that it's a fair card.

What hoops do you have to jump through? You can litterealy cram that thing into any brown deck; and most esper decks, a large quantity of blue and black decks and a whole bunch of decks I've seen that aren't those - simply because artifacts are good and getting them out faster is better. People run way to many artifacts as is - now they can run one that's situationaly better; if not always better because people will now run decks to abuse it.

Maybe I should invest in more Staff of Dominations instead...


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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 11:18 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Joz wrote:
FZA wrote:
I have no problem at all with MW being unbanned. The amount of hoops you have to jump through to break it is enough that it's a fair card.

What hoops do you have to jump through? You can litterealy cram that thing into any brown deck; and most esper decks, a large quantity of blue and black decks and a whole bunch of decks I've seen that aren't those - simply because artifacts are good and getting them out faster is better. People run way to many artifacts as is - now they can run one that's situationaly better; if not always better because people will now run decks to abuse it.

Maybe I should invest in more Staff of Dominations instead...


Or Hurkyl's Recall.

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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 8:46 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-04 4:01 am
Age: Wyvern
Artos wrote:
* Creates Undesirable Games/Game Situations. - Braids definitely falls in this bucket, and Rofellos can too.
* Warps The Format Strategically. - Both of these fall in this bucket by forcing you to play significantly more removal to keep permanents on the board (Braids) [...] Spot removal is good for the format but when certain cards force you to start drastically changing your decks and turn every game into Archenemy, that's a problem.


Therein lies the problem in my opinion.
playing at least 10 removal spells should be normal, and sacrificing one of your combo-dedicated tutors for it is just too much to ask for timmy- artifact-blue power gamer.

lets be honest. artifact blue has the biggest lobby. and the squeeky wheel gets the grease. oh, you dont say? metalworker is unbanned. orly?

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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 11:15 pm 

Joined: 2009-May-05 9:45 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Acworth, GA
bumbum wrote:
Artos wrote:
* Creates Undesirable Games/Game Situations. - Braids definitely falls in this bucket, and Rofellos can too.
* Warps The Format Strategically. - Both of these fall in this bucket by forcing you to play significantly more removal to keep permanents on the board (Braids) [...] Spot removal is good for the format but when certain cards force you to start drastically changing your decks and turn every game into Archenemy, that's a problem.


Therein lies the problem in my opinion.
playing at least 10 removal spells should be normal, and sacrificing one of your combo-dedicated tutors for it is just too much to ask for timmy- artifact-blue power gamer.

lets be honest. artifact blue has the biggest lobby. and the squeeky wheel gets the grease. oh, you dont say? metalworker is unbanned. orly?


Playing 10 removal should be normal? Is there a magical requirement to run 10 removal spells and that validates cards that most people find to be anti social? No stax card helps provide a fun or interactive game. Every stax card generates the opposite, and the "run removal" argument is a cop out from power gamers.

Personally, every card that plays the stax game could be banned, and the format would be a better place, but I know that is unreasonable. How do you not see your tears about one of the banner men of stax being banned as unreasonable as well.

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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-12 11:55 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-04 4:01 am
Age: Wyvern
no there isn't a rule for running 10 removal, but if you run into -lets say- a mean enchantment and you dont run a disenchanty card, they the solution isn't to go and cry for the ban of the enchantment it is to assemble a deck that can cope with problems rather than just focusing into ramping/tutoring into you effin combo.

the ban of braids and roffelos is plain nonsense. there are a gazillion mean cards, and braids+roffl arent even 3rd tier in that sense. magic is about throwing threats and dealing with other peoples threats.

if you go down the alley of banning 4cc 2/2 creatures that EVERY LAST COMMON REMOVAL CARD can deal with.

Image

then all that will be left of edh will be

Image

and of course what the people making the ban list are playing.

what about land destruction, what about counterspells(not only mana drain), what about hexproofies like uril? talk about "undesirable game situations". this is magic, get a toolbox and deal with the threats.

what is so special about sacrifice effects? the answer is nothing. it is all completely arbitrary.

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"The villainy you teach me I will execute; and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction."


my Wort, Boggart Auntie Deck: http://deckbase.net/user-deck-edh-wort-boggart-auntie-chaos-266-2149.html?iduser=266&


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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-13 4:32 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
bumbum wrote:
what about land destruction, what about counterspells(not only mana drain), what about hexproofies like uril? talk about "undesirable game situations". this is magic, get a toolbox and deal with the threats.
But Braids is land destruction. And Erayo who is all about countering stuff also got banned. And Hexproof dudes are just hard to kill. They don't stop your opponent from playing the game.

FZA wrote:
I'd much rather play against Braids then against the UGx goodstuff ramp decks

And Rofellos also got banned.

So all these archetypes that people complain about (stax, counters, Gx ramp) got hit. It's not like Braids was singled out.

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 Post subject: Re: my favourite edh card sais good bye
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-13 7:56 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Braids's problem is the deck she enables. You play her when you want to play a deck that keeps other people from playing.


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