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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 1:10 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Joz wrote:
T3hDarkness wrote:
In the immortal words, "Upheaval, floating three."

Floating three for what?


This is why I laugh when people claim things are on the banlist because the RC got beaten by them.


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 1:22 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Okay... I was playing some EDH today for a few hours, and on a Whim, asked the blue players to put an upheaval in their deck to test.
Now, these two decks weren't optimized for upheaval. That didn't matter.

Momir Vig with Upheaval? Absurd. Just... Absurd. He recast his ENTIRE hand, excluding land. (Which he only had 4 of anyway. Stupid, stupid Cradle.)

Azami with Upheaval? I didn't think it would be that great. Then he cast upheaval (floating 5) cast Azami, lay Reliquary Tower. Hmm... I guess that's better then I thought. :facepalm:

The Jhoira Player wasn't there, but I think we can all picture how THAT would have went down.

Yeah... I stand corrected. The bounce is better then destruction and being blue really is that big of a boost. Please keep it banned. Forever.

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Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 1:53 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jun-06 12:40 pm
Age: Hatchling
My contention was never "upheaval is fair", but it was "obliterate is also broken". You can build an entire deck around upheaval and abuse the heck out of it. However, with obliterate, you can just toss it into any deck with red mana and it's instantly good. Simply pool mana and play a threat, and watch as all your opponents are completely mana screwed and unable to deal. Thanks for the feedback though. Overall I feel much more satisfied with why only upheaval is banned.


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 2:03 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-09 11:26 am
Age: Drake
Location: Cookeville, TN.
Malchar wrote:
My contention was never "upheaval is fair", but it was "obliterate is also broken". You can build an entire deck around upheaval and abuse the heck out of it. However, with obliterate, you can just toss it into any deck with red mana and it's instantly good. Simply pool mana and play a threat, and watch as all your opponents are completely mana screwed and unable to deal. Thanks for the feedback though. Overall I feel much more satisfied with why only upheaval is banned.


how is obliterate broken, it's a uncounterable reset button 90% of the time, that other 10% they have a pretty solid enchantment or a planeswalker. but there are few planeswalkers who's ultimates are good post obliterate.... Jace TMS I guess will kill 1 person eventually. Ajani 1 will give you a serra avatar that will just get pathed, ajani 2... oh wait you already nuked lands, and as for enchantments, I guess there is that cheese stands alone variant, if you managed to get your hand down to just obliterate you win on your next upkeep, good luck doing that more than once.

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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 2:40 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Joz wrote:
T3hDarkness wrote:
In the immortal words, "Upheaval, floating three."

Floating three for what?

New(er) players, harumph.
Floating 1UB for Doctor Teeth

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 2:41 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-13 2:53 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Malchar wrote:
My contention was never "upheaval is fair", but it was "obliterate is also broken". You can build an entire deck around upheaval and abuse the heck out of it. However, with obliterate, you can just toss it into any deck with red mana and it's instantly good. Simply pool mana and play a threat, and watch as all your opponents are completely mana screwed and unable to deal. Thanks for the feedback though. Overall I feel much more satisfied with why only upheaval is banned.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that while Upheaval completely clears the board, Obliterate leaves enchantments, planeswalkers, and indestructible things. This is a massive difference. If my opponent has Debtors' Knell, Lurking Predators, Darksteel Colossus or pretty much any planeswalker out, I'm sure as hell not going to Obliterate and give them a huge advantage. Upheaval, on the other hand, gets rid of all of the above and sets the player back a large number of turns.

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Please disregard the above post. I am probably tired/sick/brain damaged from inhaling metal fumes and dust at work.

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Rith, the Awakener (Formerly Asmira, Holy Avenger and Tolsimir Wolfblood)
Sharuum the Hegemon (WIP) (Formerly Teysa, Orzhov Scion)
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind


Last edited by Mooney on 2011-Jun-07 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 3:49 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
Or toss a Viseling in there for even more fun.

And yes, I remember when Up's came into the format as that was before I stopped playing for a while. Back then, it was an absolute pain the rear and it has just gotten more stratigically viable. With the EDH format the way it is, things like this are just brutal. For a while there I was kind of unsure why obliterate and decree weren't there as well, and then I realized I had opponents who held back on them hard because I had a Land Tax or some other such thing in play that was seriously holding them back.

I guess the point is: 2 to 4 cards to do one thing, or 1 card to do them all. I am sure there is some sort of LotR's rhyme one can do with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 4:11 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jun-06 12:40 pm
Age: Hatchling
Glassthegrey wrote:
Malchar wrote:
My contention was never "upheaval is fair", but it was "obliterate is also broken". You can build an entire deck around upheaval and abuse the heck out of it. However, with obliterate, you can just toss it into any deck with red mana and it's instantly good. Simply pool mana and play a threat, and watch as all your opponents are completely mana screwed and unable to deal. Thanks for the feedback though. Overall I feel much more satisfied with why only upheaval is banned.


how is obliterate broken, it's a uncounterable reset button 90% of the time, that other 10% they have a pretty solid enchantment or a planeswalker.


For clarification, my point was that someone could cast obliterate, pool mana, and then cast a huge creature. So it's like a reset button, except one guy still has a huge creature in play. Anyway, I've made my peace with the ban list decision.


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 4:19 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Sep-01 2:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Malchar wrote:
Glassthegrey wrote:
Malchar wrote:
My contention was never "upheaval is fair", but it was "obliterate is also broken". You can build an entire deck around upheaval and abuse the heck out of it. However, with obliterate, you can just toss it into any deck with red mana and it's instantly good. Simply pool mana and play a threat, and watch as all your opponents are completely mana screwed and unable to deal. Thanks for the feedback though. Overall I feel much more satisfied with why only upheaval is banned.


how is obliterate broken, it's a uncounterable reset button 90% of the time, that other 10% they have a pretty solid enchantment or a planeswalker.


For clarification, my point was that someone could cast obliterate, pool mana, and then cast a huge creature. So it's like a reset button, except one guy still has a huge creature in play. Anyway, I've made my peace with the ban list decision.


At the 8 mana obliterate would cost, you'd have to have a ton of mana in order to cast something big enough to get you the game before someone gets some spot removal on it. And at that mana level using all of it in a turn usually gets you the win. Upheaval costs 6 and you'll likely make more mana afterwards, besides the mana you pooled.

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Working on: Vela the Night-Clad, Riku of Two Reflections, Zedruu the Greathearted


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-07 8:07 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Corran109 wrote:
...
At the 8 mana obliterate would cost, you'd have to have a ton of mana in order to cast something big enough to get you the game before someone gets some spot removal on it. And at that mana level using all of it in a turn usually gets you the win. Upheaval costs 6 and you'll likely make more mana afterwards, besides the mana you pooled.

As Shel said, the issue is not board wipe, but the fact that the Upheaval player gets to float mana and replay cards. The other players do not have the option of replaying all their mana rocks.

Upheaval is not so much of an "I win now" card as it is "I will win eventually because I've set everyone else too far back so wait 5 or 6 or 7 turns for the inevitable."

It holds out a large enough sliver of hope that maybe, just maybe you can recover from it, even though you never do.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-08 9:11 am 
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Joined: 2010-Sep-01 2:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tempesteye wrote:
Corran109 wrote:
...
At the 8 mana obliterate would cost, you'd have to have a ton of mana in order to cast something big enough to get you the game before someone gets some spot removal on it. And at that mana level using all of it in a turn usually gets you the win. Upheaval costs 6 and you'll likely make more mana afterwards, besides the mana you pooled.

As Shel said, the issue is not board wipe, but the fact that the Upheaval player gets to float mana and replay cards. The other players do not have the option of replaying all their mana rocks.

Upheaval is not so much of an "I win now" card as it is "I will win eventually because I've set everyone else too far back so wait 5 or 6 or 7 turns for the inevitable."

It holds out a large enough sliver of hope that maybe, just maybe you can recover from it, even though you never do.


I was more making a mana comparison, as Upheaval takes less time to set up than Obliterate.

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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-13 12:16 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-09 11:26 am
Age: Drake
Location: Cookeville, TN.
Malchar wrote:
Glassthegrey wrote:
Malchar wrote:
My contention was never "upheaval is fair", but it was "obliterate is also broken". You can build an entire deck around upheaval and abuse the heck out of it. However, with obliterate, you can just toss it into any deck with red mana and it's instantly good. Simply pool mana and play a threat, and watch as all your opponents are completely mana screwed and unable to deal. Thanks for the feedback though. Overall I feel much more satisfied with why only upheaval is banned.


how is obliterate broken, it's a uncounterable reset button 90% of the time, that other 10% they have a pretty solid enchantment or a planeswalker.


For clarification, my point was that someone could cast obliterate, pool mana, and then cast a huge creature. So it's like a reset button, except one guy still has a huge creature in play. Anyway, I've made my peace with the ban list decision.


Yeah but you're talking about magical christmas land here. for example lets say you wind up with Primeval Titan on your board post Spell

In the case of obliterate you either have to have the Titan in play and somehow also an enchantment (enchanted evening) or indestructible (Elspeth's ultimate, Shield of Kaldra, darksteel plate or Mycosynth lattice + forge). or you have to have 10RRG available in your pool + a forest and Primey in your hand. then yes you have a pretty unfair advantage, but you also spent 14 mana that turn, you SHOULD win games where you spend that mana constructively. Remember 15 mana is what you spent for Emrakul, the I win lolz.

In the case of upheval you can have the titan in play, you can float 7UUGG, replay your reliquary tower tap it for mana and play primeval titan. however this isn't even the BEST recovery at that point. I'm sure you had a pretty established board position with at least a darksteel ingot, a sol ring, and maybe even a mana vault. you can use some of your 6 available mana to replay your mana rocks leaving you still at 7 available mana, maybe you had a lotus cobra in play you can drop that before dropping your land to get back to the 6 mana needed to drop the titan, now when your drop 2 tapped lands you have the mana to play a signet.

Upheaveal is lightyears better than Obliterate because you have the chance to retain a good chunk of your current board state. obliterate requires either a specific established boardstate, or enough mana to fire off obliterate + some substantial threat.

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Current General(s):
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV (Mr. Superman no here)


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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-13 7:10 am 
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Joined: 2010-Dec-13 6:01 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Washington D.C.
Just one example of broken possbilities:
"I float X mana", Upheaval, Teferi's Puzzle Box, Underworld Dreams, Anvil of Bogardan.

"Pass turn."

Should def. stay on the banned list for now.

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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2011-Jun-15 11:35 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-09 11:26 am
Age: Drake
Location: Cookeville, TN.
Superstrength79 wrote:
Just one example of broken possbilities:
"I float X mana", Upheaval, Teferi's Puzzle Box, Underworld Dreams, Anvil of Bogardan.

"Pass turn."

Should def. stay on the banned list for now.

Float 10BBBUU. I feel anytime somone posts a 15 mana play as being "Broken" someone should just taze them. The reason why Emrakul, the I win LOLZ stayed legal for as long as he did is because he was a 15mana spell and should win the game.

there are several examples of boardstates that don't include spending more than 10 mana that upheval allows, those are the reason why it's should always be banned.

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 Post subject: Re: Upheaval?
AgePosted: 2014-Sep-09 3:58 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-09 3:56 pm
Age: Egg
Is there any chance for this card to be unbanned?


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