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Unban Library of Alexandria
Yes 46%  46%  [ 33 ]
No 54%  54%  [ 39 ]
Total votes : 72
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AgePosted: 2008-Jan-21 10:01 pm 

Joined: 2007-Dec-12 7:36 pm
Age: Dragon
It seems to me having some expensive cards is not a problem if they are fairly niche. Library would go in at least 9/10 "optimal" EDH decks regardless of colors, general, etc.

The fact that it is stupid-good combined with the fact it is very expensive seems to make sense to me.

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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-07 5:57 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-09 8:05 pm
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Jayke wrote:
I stopped paying attention to this topic as it seems unclear why people disallow it... The only reasonable comment being the prize tag has allready been shattered by other cards in the format

and anyone claiming Library in EDH is broken.. has possibly not tried it in multiplayer :)


You're right- I don't think anyone in this old thread has really provided a good, complete explanation. If you're still reading this, perhaps accept mine.

I feel that yes, it should be banned, because leaving it unbanned would indeed be a barrier to entry for new players.

If LoA was unbanned, it would be a card that nearly every EDH deck should be playing. If I owned one, I'd make my decks all 99 cards and add it to whatever deck I was playing. No, it's not always broken when it's played, but like the Moxes, it doesn't have to be. A deck without LoA would be worse than one that had one, and that's not the environment that we want to create. Wouldn't you agree?

This doesn't apply to Workshop or Bazaar, which only work in very, very specific decks. Yes, they're pricy, but you don't need to own either of these cards to play.

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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-07 7:41 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
TigTigger wrote:
Jayke wrote:
I stopped paying attention to this topic as it seems unclear why people disallow it... The only reasonable comment being the prize tag has allready been shattered by other cards in the format

and anyone claiming Library in EDH is broken.. has possibly not tried it in multiplayer :)


You're right- I don't think anyone in this old thread has really provided a good, complete explanation. If you're still reading this, perhaps accept mine.

I feel that yes, it should be banned, because leaving it unbanned would indeed be a barrier to entry for new players.

If LoA was unbanned, it would be a card that nearly every EDH deck should be playing. If I owned one, I'd make my decks all 99 cards and add it to whatever deck I was playing. No, it's not always broken when it's played, but like the Moxes, it doesn't have to be. A deck without LoA would be worse than one that had one, and that's not the environment that we want to create. Wouldn't you agree?

This doesn't apply to Workshop or Bazaar, which only work in very, very specific decks. Yes, they're pricey, but you don't need to own either of these cards to play.


it does not produce colored mana, so i'm not sold on "any deck" - I wouldn't run it in any 5 color deck, for example that had no color fixing in its spells. S I am not certain it is Mind's Eye ubiquitous. In duals it is backbreaking because it doubles your card advantage over the other player at the loss of tapping one land per turn. In multiplayer, it isn't as backbreking, therefore I find fault with your original premise that nearly every deck should play it. If this isn't true, it is not a barrier as it is not required as entry into the format. Personally, I'd only play it in a deck with draw 7's, a control deck with 2 colors (which can handle land that taps for colorless), or a deck with Garruk or other untap effects in green.

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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-07 7:49 pm 

Joined: 2008-Mar-08 12:01 am
Age: Drake
I would run it in any one of my EDH decks if it was unbanned and I had it..


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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-07 10:03 pm 

Joined: 2007-Aug-31 10:48 am
Age: Drake
Location: Portland, OR
I agree that Library should stay banned. The way I see it, the card is not absurd. It will not win the game the turn that it hits, or anything of the sort. However, it does give whoever has one a clear advantage over other players who do not have it, especially in a format as slow and as card advantage driven as EDH. What's more, it gives this huge advantage at no cost other than a land drop (and it doesn't even slow development, like Maze of Ith!) and its gigantic price tag. While I'm fine with silly strong effects that just make any deck better, like Sol Ring or Mind's Eye, those effects also need to be available to most players, like Sol Ring and Mind's Eye are. If those options are only available to those with money, it is not long until players feel that they are irrelevant unless they drop the big bucks on their EDH pile. And that's a feeling that I think we, as a more casual committee, should take steps to avoid.

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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-08 11:58 pm 

Joined: 2006-Jul-14 12:02 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wherever I may roam
I think, based on my absolute lack of success with Magus of the Library, that it could actually quite undisruptively be unbanned. I suspect the inclusion of Wasteland in people's decks might mirror it's uptake though...


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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-09 12:07 am 
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Joined: 2008-Apr-05 4:44 pm
Age: Drake
Nomad wrote:
I think, based on my absolute lack of success with Magus of the Library, that it could actually quite undisruptively be unbanned. I suspect the inclusion of Wasteland in people's decks might mirror it's uptake though...
Magus of the Library is terrible in most formats, yet Library of Alexandria remains banned and restricted in everything, being on a creature makes it terrible.


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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-11 7:11 am 

Joined: 2008-Apr-11 6:37 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: Minneapolis
Library is completely broken. Even though I own one, I would despise the day it becomes legal.

In EDH, unlike regular magic, there is basically no such thing as tempo. If I draw my Library and have 4 cards in hand, I can often afford to do NOTHING for 3 more turns until it becomes active.
Drawing an extra card every turn for the rest of the game is worth it.

Library is actually more powerful than most other banned cards, including Ancestral Recall.

Yeah answers exist, but recursion does too. Have you ever seen Library with Life from the Loam?


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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-11 8:09 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
In a game where a player is already card-efficient enough to have 7 in their grip, giving them access to Library seems quite unfun.

Also, as was just said, Life from the Loam, nice.


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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-16 9:13 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-21 8:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It's banned by definition of the format and not necessarily for power reasons, so feel free to play it in your playgroup. The official banlist is for a level playing field for massive multiplayer on a budget. Does anyone think library is disproportionately powerful in a edh decK? I don't think so, but they want to keep it on the banlist because it's too expensive. You should certainly play with it if you have it because it's hella fun and a friggin' awesome card to get to play with. I think that's my core EDH principle is I play with cards that are fun. But again I'm advocating using house rules to solve this issue whereas your point is that it's not too powerful to even merit being banned at all. My only issue there is that I have all the power 10 and do not feel qualified to make such a budget call so I'm leaving that to the EDH rules committee because they have a much better feel for the market and playgroup power levels...and the current consensus is there's no way that card shows up enough in decks if gets unbanned so it would be "the privilege of the rich" to play the card in their edh deck and therefore must be banned. Pretty much sums up my point of view on this subject...heck I think moxen are fine too but I'm not gonna change the format I'd play some powered vintage to get that playstyle not a budget format.


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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-19 1:33 pm 

Joined: 2007-Jun-04 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Gainsville, FL
wow, now that I've lost all of my decks, this is about the only expensive card I have left besides an italian drain floating around in my old Skittles deck. wow I so wanna unban it even more. ::cry::

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 Post subject: Library
AgePosted: 2008-Apr-20 4:30 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Jun-28 7:08 pm
Age: Drake
Arguing that unbanning Library is ok because all players can just up their land destruction count is super lame. I know that the majority of players hate playing against land destruction, especially casual players. I know that at least one game designer inside R&D that thinks Magic would just be a better game without any land destruction at all. I personally disagree, it's nice to have the LD avenue to beat say a Tron-based Tooth & Nail metagame, but it's true that land destruction is responsible for a significant number of frowns, sadness, fist fights, and ultimately players quiting Magic. Is it more than the number of smiles LD induces? Not sure, but probably not.

EDH is potentially a place for Battlecruisers and Carriers to fight each other (aka Angels and Dragons), but you're arguing to let every player play with a single double-speed SCV in their decks (Library of Alexandria), that they randomly may or may not begin the game with. A double-speed SCV wins games, but not in a fun Battlecruiser-shooting-Yamato-cannon way (IMO).

Except that this double-speed SCV is from a limited StarCraft expansion that costs $100.

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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-20 9:00 pm 

Joined: 2008-Apr-20 7:43 pm
Age: Wyvern
library's really not overpowered at all, & it never has been. and the whole argument about it being unattainable to the average player is dumb. if somebody wants to drop tons of many on library, power, whatever, that is their money to drop. which the exception of time walk the power 9 (or 8, apparently... news to me) is really not even that powerful, ESPECIALLY with only one in a hundred-card deck. i mean, yeah, they're great, but they're all tempo cards. tempo is not nearly as big an issue in any highlander format as it is in 'normal' magic.

anyway, back to the original point... library sucks. even if it is in every deck, players are forced to either play blue for power drawing to get up to 7 cards or basically just stop playing things for a number of turns. it's just bad unless you play it turn one or two. period.


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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-20 9:38 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-09 4:17 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary, AB
Horse wrote:
...


Your post shows a marked lack of either decent manners or knowledge of Magic. You're either intentionally trolling to anger people, or incapable of contributing to the discussion here. Either way, I see no reason for you to continue posting in that way.

I mean seriously... "period"?

G

PS: The discussion is moot either way... Library isn't being considered for unbanning at any point in the foreseeable future. It's one of the few cards which violates BOTH major criteria for banning.


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AgePosted: 2008-Apr-21 3:18 pm 

Joined: 2008-Feb-24 1:27 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Genomancer wrote:
Horse wrote:
...


Your post shows a marked lack of either decent manners or knowledge of Magic. You're either intentionally trolling to anger people, or incapable of contributing to the discussion here. Either way, I see no reason for you to continue posting in that way.

I mean seriously... "period"?

G

PS: The discussion is moot either way... Library isn't being considered for unbanning at any point in the foreseeable future. It's one of the few cards which violates BOTH major criteria for banning.


this is putting it WAYYYYY too nicely for what he deserves. it's much easier and faster to just say "you're a fucking dumbass".


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