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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-28 4:22 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
pookel wrote:
CrazyPierre wrote:
Basically ask him to remove it or ask him if you can select the land targets.
If he won't do either, ask him to leave the game or just escalate on your own (add Moxen, Recurring Nightmare, Gris) and combo kill turn two or three. Then when/if he gets indignant, just look innocent and say:

"I'm sorry, I thought we weren's using the banned list?"

:facepalm: :oops:

All you should need is Black Lotus, Channel, any X-cost burn spell and a carefully stacked opening hand to demonstrate the problem.

Better yet, Gemstone Caverns, Simian Spirit Guide, Flash,Protean Hulk, and a deck built to abuse the Hulk for the classic Turn Zero kill. That should convince him pretty quickly there's a reason for the ban list.


then have Grislebrand, Bargain, painters servant (and abusers) plus a few other things in it, just in case he might have counterspell.


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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-28 3:05 pm 

Joined: 2012-Nov-21 3:29 am
Age: Drake
It really depends how people are using some of the cards. Painter's Servant can be a pretty fair and fun card until people start using things like Grindstone, Iona, Shield of Emeria, or some other rubbish.

Ancestral Recall and Library of Alexandria aren't horribly broken in this format (Windfall, Wheel of Fortune, and Phyrexian Arena can all perform a lot a lot better under normal circumstances, unless someone is doing something intentionally degenerate). I'd be more scared of Mana Crypt and Mana Drain, and god knows what the logic for either of those being around is.

I don't believe anything fun is ever going to happen with a Prime Time though, especially when he gets cloned and copied and spammed everywhere. I'm not sure why Consecrated Sphinx doesn't get tossed either, except that it can be answered easier.


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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-29 12:07 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-21 11:51 am
Age: Elder Dragon
"cool so I can use Recurring Nightmare"?


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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-29 1:00 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
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The way for an individual to handle this is not in terms of "me" but in terms of "us."

If someone says "I think the banned list sucks, so I'm playing with Banned Card, you guys deal with it," I'd tell him to play elsewhere.

If someone says "I think the banned list sucks, can we work out our own?" I'd have a honest discussion about it and see what we could work out.

The first tells me the person is only interested in themselves, the second that they care if everyone has a good time.

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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-29 4:32 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
My LGS still allows PT but you can't search/tutor for him. (No Bribery'ing him! :) )

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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-29 5:48 am 
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PT was so good because it was so searchable. The beast-tracker is only playable with PT around.

But that's why he needed to go--he was the first one tutored for, or bribery'ed for.

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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-30 4:55 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Epsilon wrote:
Sinis wrote:
I wrote 'if you feel strongly enough about it'. I don't think there's a single card on the ban list that I feel strongly enough about to not actually play someone. Your mileage may vary, of course.


You should try this esper deck built around copying and recurring Enter the Dungeon and Shahrazad then! >.>

or

Turn 1: Ashnod's Coupon.
Turn 2: Swing lethal with 20xCheatyface's?

See, it's these moments where I decline to play against the person. This misses the whole point about what I was saying. Even if Sharazad were legal, I'd literally say "well, that was fun, concede. No thanks on the rematch."

This whole thread has people saying "Primeval Titan? Oh yeah?! How about my X?" Where "X" ranges from Black Lotus to Recurring Nightmare.

This isn't the answer, this is sheer antagonism. The ban list does not entail the following:

1. If your opponent is playing banned cards, you should not play against them unconditionally.
2. If your opponent adheres to the ban list, you must play them.

If your opponent is playing a deck you don't like, with or without banned cards, negotiate with them, and failing that, don't play against them.

If your opponent is playing a deck you like, with or without banned cards, play against them.

It's pretty simple, if you ask me.

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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-30 5:00 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I remember, one guy, way back asked if we would let him play with Prime Time, my response was (verbatim.) "Sure, if I can play with Protean Hulk and Recurring Nightmare?" (smile-o-doom.)

He went to play Standard.


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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Nov-30 8:00 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-15 12:45 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
This whole thread has people saying "Primeval Titan? Oh yeah?! How about my X?" Where "X" ranges from Black Lotus to Recurring Nightmare.

This isn't the answer, this is sheer antagonism.

To me, the point is not antagonism; it's a demonstration of the reasons the ban list exists. People play banned cards, usually, not because they're assholes, but because they don't understand why those cards are broken. Showing them why they're broken can help them see the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-01 4:30 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
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Location: Toronto, ON
pookel wrote:
Sinis wrote:
This whole thread has people saying "Primeval Titan? Oh yeah?! How about my X?" Where "X" ranges from Black Lotus to Recurring Nightmare.

This isn't the answer, this is sheer antagonism.

To me, the point is not antagonism;
You may not intend it as antagonism, but that'll surely be it's effect. If someone genuinely wants to play Painter's Servant for fun (say it's true scarecrow tribal, no changelings, and nothing like Grindstone or Iona), are you really going to say "Hey, Imma get my Power Nine out, let's have some 'fun'!"

What's the scarecrow player to say?
Quote:
it's a demonstration of the reasons the ban list exists. People play banned cards, usually, not because they're assholes, but because they don't understand why those cards are broken. Showing them why they're broken can help them see the problem.
Firstly, this is an awfully pedantic attitude. Second, the point that I'm trying to make is that saying "I'm going to play banned card Y that's even more broken!" doesn't demonstrate at all why the ban list exists. There are plenty of cards that can be used much more abusively that are legal than the ones on the ban list.

Take Staff of Domination against Hermit Druid. For Staff to be broken, you need a creature that's going to produce five mana. But, if someone is playing it just for durdles, it's probably fine. They're just tapping your creatures, or untapping their own for blocking, or gaining life. For Hermit Druid to be broken, you need only have built your deck correctly and to play him. Yet, many play Hermit Druid to jump-start relatively fair graveyard strategies.

I'd be willing to play at least couple of games against someone playing Staff of Domination, and many more if they were using it in a durdly capacity, even though it would be 'illegal'. I'd be willing to play exactly zero games against someone playing Hermit Druid combo, even though it would be wholly legal.

Doesn't that show that the ban list hardly exists for the reason you're suggesting at all? The whole point of the ban list is to show that there are kinds of usages for cards that will not be socially acceptable. If you use your Panoptic Mirror to take infinite turns (instead of, say, using it to create an Overrun every turn), you've only proven to the true scarecrow tribal player with the Painter's Servant that you can't make an exception for anything worthwhile, and that any misstep is punishable in the weight of your collection.

You demonstrate nothing by pulling out your Recurring Nightmares, or Griselbrands. At that point, you might as well be playing Hermit Druid combo for all the concern you have for the other player's fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-01 4:46 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
If you use your Panoptic Mirror to take infinite turns (instead of, say, using it to create an Overrun every turn)

Nitpick here, but I'm pretty sure even without infinite turn problems, Panoptic Mirror's power level in EDH is just too high. Wrath each turn, Bribery each turn, tutor each turn, Boundless Realms each turn, they're all massively scary.

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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-01 5:30 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Sinis wrote:
If you use your Panoptic Mirror to take infinite turns (instead of, say, using it to create an Overrun every turn)

Nitpick here, but I'm pretty sure even without infinite turn problems, Panoptic Mirror's power level in EDH is just too high. Wrath each turn, Bribery each turn, tutor each turn, Boundless Realms each turn, they're all massively scary.

Eh, if someone pays 5 for a panoptic, and then 5 to imprint a bribery, they've dumped 10 mana into it already. This is a lot like Eternal Dominion except it was two cards, and paid in two instalments (and you're still allowed to cast spells, I suppose). (Without getting into the 'easily answered' argument, I'm also pretty sure I'm okay that they can wander into someone's Homeward Path now.)

Anyway, could they really do too much worse with a Time Stretch? And tutoring every turn is already in the game, Bringer of the Black Dawn does it too (along with Maralen, who combos with anti-search). The second iteration of Boundless Realms would likely not yield too many lands, you could accomplish the same thing with a fork (instead of Panoptic for 5, and then imprint for 7).

The point I'm trying to make here is that the things you could do with Panoptic Mirror (except infinite turns, and perhaps continual tutors) are pretty well within the cost of the imprint and panoptic itself. Yeah, it's powerful, but so is Nicol Bolas Planeswalker + Jokulhaups. There are a ton of two card combos that cost 8+ mana that are on the same level as Panoptic. I think panoptic gets included on the ban list because it has the potential to accidentally create unfun scenarios for a large number of spells (especially extra turns, or repeated Poxes).

I also don't think this really impinges on the argument I was making earlier. You could substitute Panoptic for Staff of Domination, or Painter's Servant, or other cards with 'fair' applications, or even Primeval Titan for the guy who is only playing basics.

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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-02 4:52 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I think a tit-for-tat reaction is the wrong one to have.

I get mad when people use proxies (without asking if they are okay first), I remember when someone used a proxy Overwhelming Forces, to win the game and it wasn't even a good proxy, it wasn't in another deck and they weren't going to buy one, it was just an Island with sharpie on it scribbled overwhelming forces. I got mad, but I didn't go grab 100 islands and make a really busted deck of all proxies, I told him that next game he needs to at least print a piece of paper that looks like the card and put it in there.


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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-02 4:57 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Tim Proctor wrote:
I think a tit-for-tat reaction is the wrong one to have.

I get mad when people use proxies (without asking if they are okay first), I remember when someone used a proxy Overwhelming Forces, to win the game and it wasn't even a good proxy, it wasn't in another deck and they weren't going to buy one, it was just an Island with sharpie on it scribbled overwhelming forces. I got mad, but I didn't go grab 100 islands and make a really busted deck of all proxies, I told him that next game he needs to at least print a piece of paper that looks like the card and put it in there.

I have a problem with people that proxy eternal cards over $15. Below $15, its ok. As long as its at least a decent print out and glue. But above $15. That shit better either be gold border, collector edition or REAL.

Overwhelming Forces proxy, woulda hate raped that guy out of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Someone refuses to honor the banlist--happened to you?
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-04 4:29 pm 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 1:41 am
Age: Drake
Joz wrote:
woulda hate raped that guy out of the game.


There's that edh community spirit we all love, but I also don't play against decks with cards on the banlist in them. The banlist is already so barren and sparse there's really no real reason that playing with the banned cards is necessary.

Also for a fun game, ask someone the approximate total value of their deck and their general, and see how close you can get to writing out their decklist without looking. If you get over 50% you win!

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