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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 4:51 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
While I personally wouldn't mind playing "Mindlock Orb" EDH, it's simply not viable for the format. The list of Banned cards would be insanely long--and then comes the question of "What's actually a Tutor?" If it's anything that gets a card out of your deck? If it's anything that gets a non-land card out of your deck? If it's anything that puts it in your hand/in play and not the other? It gets pretty squicky pretty fast. It would also significantly over-value draw effects. The lesson here is that you can't do anything in a vacuum. Throwing a stone in a pond doesn't just sink the stone to the bottom, it also causes ripples.


I did specifically say it would increase the value of draw but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Too many players are already playing in topdeck mode after the 3rd or 4th turn. Stronger players already value it highly.

I'd suggest banning some specific "overpowered" tutors (Mirage cycle or demonic maybe?) if only to reinforce the idea that too many tutors ruins the game. I don't actually expect that to happen but it certainly wouldn't be "bad" for the format.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-26 2:11 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
My problem has not been with Mirage tutors or even Demonic Tutor so much as with tutors that get more than one card. If you can get more than one card, you can get an entire combo at once. When players can get a combo, they often do.

When a player can get only a single card he is more likely to use it as a toolbox, but I have also seen players hold on to a single tutor until they draw half a combo to just get the other half and auto-win.

These are the times when combos are neither interactive nor interesting and reflect badly on what is fundamentally not an antisocial win condition.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-26 5:03 am 
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crokaycete wrote:
My problem has not been with Mirage tutors or even Demonic Tutor so much as with tutors that get more than one card. If you can get more than one card, you can get an entire combo at once. When players can get a combo, they often do.


This.

I think that hit the nail on the head as to what to designate as a tutor. Everything else is simply X cycling. And mirage tutors are fun to use, honestly, as your opponent can still do something to make you shuffle or mill your search target. Case in point, I cast Mystic Tutor, and my opponent flashed in clear the land afterwards.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-26 8:07 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Tim Proctor wrote:
Zur the Enchanter - Now here is an interesting situation. If turn 3 you can pop out a Thraben Doomsayer, Stonybrook School Master, etc. and then on turn 4 swing with this guy getting an Intruder Alarm you have an infinite combo that doesn't do anything until the next turn. Granted there are all sorts of things you can do with this guy to make tons of infinite combos and win on turn 5, Blasting Station, etc. is he broken beyond repair? Nope, I don't think he should even be banned as a commander.

The problem with him isn't infinite combos, it's when he goes for unbreakable locks such as Contamination and Bitterblossom. Anything mean he does beyond those combos is secondary.

Also, I think the big bad boy that you forgot in your list is Arcum Dagsson, who is widely considered as bad as, if not worse than, Zur.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-26 4:32 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
My problem has not been with Mirage tutors or even Demonic Tutor so much as with tutors that get more than one card. If you can get more than one card, you can get an entire combo at once. When players can get a combo, they often do.

When a player can get only a single card he is more likely to use it as a toolbox, but I have also seen players hold on to a single tutor until they draw half a combo to just get the other half and auto-win.

These are the times when combos are neither interactive nor interesting and reflect badly on what is fundamentally not an antisocial win condition.


I agree that they're not inherently unfun. It's not the point that they can be used fairly or even interacted with. All tutors can fit that goal. Tutors are included for the sole purpose of increasing the chance of seeing that one card you want to see with a greater than 1/99 chance at deck construction. Why include 10 cards to answer this specific situation when you can just include 3 answers and 7 tutors that can go for multiple different answers? Certainly, that is "smarter" deck construction but it enables the boring repetitive games that everyone hates.

I specifically gave the mirage cycle as an example because they are instant speed and cost 1. While the multisearch options are more easily broken, the legal options (aside from maybe intuition) all cost a lot of mana and generally prevent the player from winning with whatever they tutored up that turn unless they already have an insane amount of mana, in which case the tutor didn't help that much honestly.

The banned list, in general, is cards that cause games to degenerate too quickly. You aren't going to be seeing biabolic revelation cast on turn 1-2 like you often do with the mirage or demonic tutors. They also can fall under the "accidental asshole" clause of the banned list where as the others are pretty obviously broken. As you said yourself, "I don't usually see them as a problem cause they're generally used to toolbox". The toolbox IS the problem. With so many tutors the game is extremely predictable in a format that is supposed to be the opposite of that.

He just tutored for an artifact so now I tutor for an acidic slime. Now he'll tutor for recursion so I tutor for GY hate. it's as predictable and gameable as standard or legacy when it's supposed to be big, wild, and unpredictable.

Like I said, I totally don't expect it to happen but it certainly wouldn't be a bad thing for the format.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-27 12:22 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Tim Proctor wrote:
Zur the Enchanter - Now here is an interesting situation. If turn 3 you can pop out a Thraben Doomsayer, Stonybrook School Master, etc. and then on turn 4 swing with this guy getting an Intruder Alarm you have an infinite combo that doesn't do anything until the next turn. Granted there are all sorts of things you can do with this guy to make tons of infinite combos and win on turn 5, Blasting Station, etc. is he broken beyond repair? Nope, I don't think he should even be banned as a commander.

The problem with him isn't infinite combos, it's when he goes for unbreakable locks such as Contamination and Bitterblossom. Anything mean he does beyond those combos is secondary.

Also, I think the big bad boy that you forgot in your list is Arcum Dagsson, who is widely considered as bad as, if not worse than, Zur.


Interesting, I never had a problem with that... it may be that my group plays a lot of colorless wrath effects (probably cause I always gift them Celestial Dawn or the blue player's Quisilver Fountain and the black player uses contamination), and colorless mana producers like the signets. I've really only seen him at his deadliest when he outright wins the game, but every group is different.

Either way I don't think that he needs banned.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-27 2:40 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Arcum is on par with Zur; if you can get him out by turn 2 or 3, and have him active the next turn, that should secure you the game. At least, it should for any player who's plan it was to win.

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niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-27 9:57 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
tempesteye wrote:
Arcum is on par with Zur; if you can get him out by turn 2 or 3, and have him active the next turn, that should secure you the game. At least, it should for any player who's plan it was to win.

Until I read the second sentence, I was going to point out a guy at my LGS who uses Arcum to run Myr Tribal. Only time I've ever not wanted to flay an Arcum Player's head and then beat him with a stick.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-27 10:44 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
But those are the real 'to the battlefield' tutors, do any of them need banned? I don't think so. The Mirage tutors obviously don't need banned, the cards don't even go to the hand and its a single card, yes they are cheap but nothing about them is busted. So I don't think that any of the tutors out there need busted.

What about other cards, something that bends the format like Serra Ascendant, Feldar Sorverign?


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-27 10:52 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Tim Proctor wrote:
But those are the real 'to the battlefield' tutors, do any of them need banned? I don't think so. The Mirage tutors obviously don't need banned, the cards don't even go to the hand and its a single card, yes they are cheap but nothing about them is busted. So I don't think that any of the tutors out there need busted.

What about other cards, something that bends the format like Serra Ascendant, Feldar Sorverign?


I loudly, publicly and with such conviction worthy of the greatest of actors, curse the person(s) using them, and then make a vow to kill them.

And I've never failed that vow.


The vow also works on LD and MLD players.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-27 12:08 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Tim Proctor wrote:
But those are the real 'to the battlefield' tutors, do any of them need banned? I don't think so. The Mirage tutors obviously don't need banned, the cards don't even go to the hand and its a single card, yes they are cheap but nothing about them is busted. So I don't think that any of the tutors out there need busted.

What about other cards, something that bends the format like Serra Ascendant, Feldar Sorverign?

Serra Ascendant? Really?
Sure, it may come out early. But at most it's a hyper efficient fattie which can take one player out of the game, and maybe put a dent in another. It's annoying, nothing more. It's also a good reason why stuff like Magister Sphinx and Commander Damage and Infect at 10 exist.
Win Cat is exactly the same as any other alternate win con card. You have a full turn to answer it. It's like a very slow combo you see coming.
Again, these are cards which force you to think about playing the game in a slightly different way. These are not cards which warp metagames because they are grossly overpowered.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-27 12:33 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-15 12:45 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Serra Ascendant bugs the hell out of me because, really, a 6/6 flying lifelinker on turn 1? That's just not right.

But I play it anyway because it's too good not to.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-27 1:04 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
pookel wrote:
Serra Ascendant bugs the hell out of me because, really, a 6/6 flying lifelinker on turn 1? That's just not right.

But I play it anyway because it's too good not to.

Thats why your a bad player, you take the easy way of playing a 6/6 flying lifelink for W.
Real men play and pay 6 for a 1/1 without lifelink or flying!


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-27 1:23 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-15 12:45 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Joz wrote:
pookel wrote:
Serra Ascendant bugs the hell out of me because, really, a 6/6 flying lifelinker on turn 1? That's just not right.

But I play it anyway because it's too good not to.

Thats why your a bad player, you take the easy way of playing a 6/6 flying lifelink for W.
Real men play and pay 6 for a 1/1 without lifelink or flying!

There would be a problem if I were a real man, so I'm OK with that.

P.S. Scornful Egotist laughs at your paltry 6 mana.

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crokaycete wrote:
When casting Elephant Ambush, it is appropriate to yell "I was behind the tree, you stupid bastard" to announce the spell.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-27 1:42 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tempesteye wrote:
Serra Ascendant? Really?
Sure, it may come out early. But at most it's a hyper efficient fattie which can take one player out of the game, and maybe put a dent in another. It's annoying, nothing more. It's also a good reason why stuff like Magister Sphinx and Commander Damage and Infect at 10 exist.
Win Cat is exactly the same as any other alternate win con card. You have a full turn to answer it. It's like a very slow combo you see coming.
Again, these are cards which force you to think about playing the game in a slightly different way. These are not cards which warp metagames because they are grossly overpowered.


Yeah, Really... I'm directing the focus of the thread here on an examples of cards that clear abuse the game state values of EDH. I'm not saying that they need banned, I don't believe that they do, but I will tell you that a 6/6 lifelink, flying for 1 mana is not supposed to happen. Does it need banned, nope, not according to the small ban list mentality.

But does that mean some cards need to be unbanned? What cards on the current ban list are abusive to the format (like the Ascendant) that are banned? Kukopuffs was but has been unbanned (glad to see it banned as a Commander), Coalition Victory?


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