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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 9:03 am 
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IGottaBigDeck wrote:
As for unbanning...I say unban Chaos Orb, but with a catch: if you're gonna use it, you MUST cut it into tiny, tiny pieces before throwing it on the table. No proxies allowed. Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Black Lotus used this way, too...


Um Chaos Orb isn't banned nor should it be.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 10:02 am 
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Tim Proctor wrote:
IGottaBigDeck wrote:
As for unbanning...I say unban Chaos Orb, but with a catch: if you're gonna use it, you MUST cut it into tiny, tiny pieces before throwing it on the table. No proxies allowed. Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Black Lotus used this way, too...


Um Chaos Orb isn't banned nor should it be.


Pretty sure he was joking.

But since EDH uses Vintage legal cards, and Chaos Orb is banned in Vintage, most groups I've played in agree Chaos Orb is banned for EDH. (Somehow, there's never argument over whether Chaos Orb is ok, and a lot of fighting of Shahrazad instead.) :facepalm:

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Last edited by Kemev on 2012-Sep-24 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 10:08 am 
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Tim Proctor wrote:
IGottaBigDeck wrote:
As for unbanning...I say unban Chaos Orb, but with a catch: if you're gonna use it, you MUST cut it into tiny, tiny pieces before throwing it on the table. No proxies allowed. Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing Black Lotus used this way, too...


Um Chaos Orb isn't banned nor should it be.

All manual dexterity cards, ante cards, and silver-bordered cards are banned.

I think it'd be fun to play for ante just for a day or something, though. Everyone could use different sleeves, play the same decks all day, and return all cards to their owners at the end of the day.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 10:38 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kemev wrote:
I'd like to see a switcheroo where Painter's Servant gets unbanned, and Iona and Grindstone get banned, for pretty much the same reasons everyone else has mentioned. Painter's Servant seems pretty neat, and I think a lot of people would like to play with it. Iona's sort of miserable, and Grindstone doesn't really do anything, so I don't think a lot of players would miss them.

Anyone else getting frustrated with Kiki-Jiki?
Sheldon has mentioned it before. The problem really boils down to can you take out cards without him being infinte that does not kill your deck? SO MANY good cards now just end the game with him.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 11:16 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
Kemev wrote:
I'd like to see a switcheroo where Painter's Servant gets unbanned, and Iona and Grindstone get banned, for pretty much the same reasons everyone else has mentioned. Painter's Servant seems pretty neat, and I think a lot of people would like to play with it. Iona's sort of miserable, and Grindstone doesn't really do anything, so I don't think a lot of players would miss them.

Anyone else getting frustrated with Kiki-Jiki?
Sheldon has mentioned it before. The problem really boils down to can you take out cards without him being infinte that does not kill your deck? SO MANY good cards now just end the game with him.

Some examples please? The worst of which I can think are Llawan, Iona, Grindstone, Momir Vig, and Teysa. Only 4 of those are legitimately powerful to run without PS, Llawan is a color hoser which you probably wouldn't run innocently, and Iona is a pure dick card. The other two can really be bad, but there's far worse we could fear.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 11:17 am 
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crokaycete wrote:
I'm also not sure I buy that there is this line between "synergy" and "combo." I didn't play competitively during "combo winter," but Pros-Bloom - probably the most famous combo deck of all time - wasn't infinite. It wasn't even close. It was just big enough.

Actually, Academy and Bargain weren't infinite either. Why I wrote "massively recursive loops", not "infinite loops".

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If you wanted to get serious about "fixing" this format, you would start by banning every tutor for anything other than basic lands (probably Farseek and friends are fine as well).

Commander is a broken format, kept in check by the social contract and the fact that it is most often played as a multiplayer game. Trying to fix it through the rules isn't going to work. As for restricting the access to tutors, that was attempted in the now-defunct format Prismatic, and was part of the reason why it is now-defunct.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 4:54 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
tl;dr: Combos are actually fine. Tutors are the real BS. Ban Survival of the Fittest.


I have to agree with this. The way the combos are used leads to the unfun situations (IE infinite turns with just a 2/2 to swing vs just doing a fireball for 500 on everyone so we can shuffle up and start a new game) but in general a combo is not "bad". Tutors have always been my least favorite part of the format. We're playing a singleton format with 40 extra cards to make sure every game plays differently and then we all just load up with tutors to make sure every game plays exactly the same. Non-land tutors are one of the biggest reasons that combo is an issue at all. Not to mention the amount of stalling it causes because everyone waits to do it til the EOT of the player before them.

A LOT of banned cards wouldn't even be an issue if we were to get rid of tutors. Prime Time wouldn't impact the format if you only had a 25% chance for him to show up in any given game. You get the turn 1 worldy tutor (at EOT) for prime time or turn 2/3 SotF, Green Sun, Mwonvuli Beast Tracker, Fierce Empath, etc... Everyone puts in a dozen tutors to ensure that he shows up every single game and when he does show up, it just leads to even more stalling as they have to search for two specific lands. The availability is what drives these good cards into the "too good" realm.

Faster, but longer and more unpredictable games would come about if tutors were banned. It would lead to some interesting changes with draw becoming much better and dredge effects, graveyard hate and discard would become stronger, etc but I could totally get behind a "no tutors" trial.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 2:32 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
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No to no tutors

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 3:06 am 
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While I personally wouldn't mind playing "Mindlock Orb" EDH, it's simply not viable for the format. The list of Banned cards would be insanely long--and then comes the question of "What's actually a Tutor?" If it's anything that gets a card out of your deck? If it's anything that gets a non-land card out of your deck? If it's anything that puts it in your hand/in play and not the other? It gets pretty squicky pretty fast. It would also significantly over-value draw effects. The lesson here is that you can't do anything in a vacuum. Throwing a stone in a pond doesn't just sink the stone to the bottom, it also causes ripples.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 5:55 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Some examples please? The worst of which I can think are Llawan, Iona, Grindstone, Momir Vig, and Teysa. Only 4 of those are legitimately powerful to run without PS, Llawan is a color hoser which you probably wouldn't run innocently, and Iona is a pure dick card. The other two can really be bad, but there's far worse we could fear.
I was speaking about Kiki Jiki becoming a problem, not Iona.

I DO think Iona is a problem, and should switch places with Painter's.

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niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 6:18 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
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I know banning all tutors is logistically impossible format-wide. I just think combos get a bad name because people are in denial about the real problem.

I also think Surival is the most egregious of the tutors left in the format, and that banning just that one card would make a noticeable difference.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 10:32 am 

Joined: 2011-Apr-28 9:58 pm
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crokaycete wrote:
I know banning all tutors is logistically impossible format-wide. I just think combos get a bad name because people are in denial about the real problem.

I also think Surival is the most egregious of the tutors left in the format, and that banning just that one card would make a noticeable difference.


I agree about Survival, and this is coming from someone who owns five of them. Every time I abuse it, I hunch over my cards like I'm expecting to get whacked over the head by Al Capone, a la Hillerich and Bradsby...but I do it anyway, because I CAN. Dammit.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 12:24 pm 
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MRHblue wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Some examples please? The worst of which I can think are Llawan, Iona, Grindstone, Momir Vig, and Teysa. Only 4 of those are legitimately powerful to run without PS, Llawan is a color hoser which you probably wouldn't run innocently, and Iona is a pure dick card. The other two can really be bad, but there's far worse we could fear.
I was speaking about Kiki Jiki becoming a problem, not Iona.

I wasn't talking about Iona either, I was referring to PS. Though your statement makes way more sense now that you clarify that. And while I do agree with you that it becomes too good too quickly, it still is one of the few truly awesome powerful red cards in EDH. Most red cards in EDH are not as powerful as they are anywhere else because of their traditional strategies (damage to the head, damage based removal, mass or targeted LD, weenie based swarm) all suck in a 40 life singleton multiplayer format, or they're socially unacceptable. Kiki-Jiki is one of the few cards that breaks this mold by having what is truly a unique ability for red, and banning it would definetely cause more problems then it fixes.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 12:44 pm 
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Location: Oakland, CA
Sheldon wrote:
then comes the question of "What's actually a Tutor?" If it's anything that gets a card out of your deck? If it's anything that gets a non-land card out of your deck? If it's anything that puts it in your hand/in play and not the other?

Actually, the tutors I have the most problem with are the ones that get a land out of your deck, or an enchantment out of your deck, etc. Most Demonic Tutor effects are, in my experience, pretty healthy for the format. It's the ones that are only used to fetch Cabal Coffers or Avenger of Zendikar(+) every game that get stale. But banning them would just mean regular Demonic Tutor-style cards would take their place, ceasing to be toolbox.

And I should also admit, I run Expedition Map in every deck except my monoblack deck (which also doesn't run Demonic Tutor; the only tutors it runs are Night Dealings and Maralen of the Mornsong). And I run Crop Rotation in every deck with both G and B, and almost always use it to get the same land (Bojuka Bog, obviously). But somehow repeated "answers" don't get stale anywhere near as quickly as repeated "threats" do.
Speaking of "toolbox tutors," I would really like to see 10-card sideboards made the norm, for the sake of Wishes. The argument against this change, as I understand it, is that there are people who will use Wishes to get Boil or whatever unfun hoser is most relevant to that game, but I think that's exactly the kind of behavior we can trust the social contract to eliminate. It will happen at first, and people will say "that's dumb, quit it," and then it will happen less and less.

I think a 10-card sideboard of the cards you don't have in your deck means that Wishes are going to be really fair, really interactive toolbox tutors most of the time. For example, here's my Jenara sideboard: Back to Nature, Foil, Hurkyl's Recall, Nature's Claim, Path to Exile, Purify the Grave, Stifle, Tangle, Wing Shards. Totally fair, interactive stuff.

Anyway, I'm in agreement with Sheldon that banning a category of tutors* is a bad idea, but I'm also in agreement with crokaycete/Epsilon that they're one of the most frequent sources of "unfun" in the format.

*(other than Gifts Ungiven)


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 3:07 pm 
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I don't think Survival needs banned, the issue is with tutors that put cards onto the battlefield and cost 8 or less. Those are the ones that don't allow for interaction or a lot of interaction.

Academy Rector- this card has got to be one of the most busted cards out there, the worst is that it gets the Splinter Twin for your Restoration Angel or your Village Bell-Ringer. Should it be banned? I don't think so, while it is a powerful card I don't think that it is above the power curve. It should be on the watch list.

Auratouched Mage - this is probably on the lower end of busted but has some really potential combinations with it. I've seen it go for Splinter Twin, and then the Token grab Breath of Fury allowing for a turn 6 win. You need 1 more creature out there, but then when it untaps you get another token throw Eldrazi Conscription, etc. but it does allow for infinite combat stages. Should it be banned? No.

Sovereigns of Lost Alara - Same as above but usually that creature will suicide and get Pattern of Rebirth which opens up all sorts of buckets of pain. A turn 6 infinite combo win. Should it be banned? Nope.

Chord of Calling - Here we are getting to one of the more busted cards out there, instant speed and gets a creature and puts it into play. There are tons of infinite combos revolving around creatures but this only gets 1 of them and is most likely to cost more than 8. It shouldn't be banned.

Defense of the Heart - Unless someone wraths or has a destroy enchantment this will most likely go off on turn 5 allowing for one of the many 2 creature infinite combos out there. Kikki-Jikki, the Mirror Breaker and any of the untap guys since there are like 7 that he combos with. Mike and Trike, etc. This is a card that should be watched. It doesn't get abused so it isn't format warping but if it catches on it'll be one of the better ones out there. Furthermore, there is a condition that has to be met for the card to trigger making it less reliable.

Green Sun's Zenith - Same as Chord of Calling but it only gets green and is sorcery speed. I don't think it's bannable.

Kuldotha Forgemaster - Goes infinite with a number of cards but does that make it bannable? No cause the cost is really high and artifact hate, especially artifact creature hate is really easy to obtain.

Lifespinner - Can go infinite with a lot of the Karmic Guide but like the Forgemaster the cost is high (also a benefit for the combo), it isn't format warping it is semi-busted but doesn't really get played much.

Natural Order - This card gets a lot of play but its' eh. Yeah you tricked an Eldrazi into play on turn 4, that is why Emrakul is banned. I don't think this card should be banned at all.

Stonehewer Giant - A repeatable tutor for equipment, some of which may be living. No haste, so I don't see this as a uber deadly card. Not bannable.

Pattern of Rebirth - Here is a card I personally think is great, combos off with a lot of stuff (what's better than sacing a Iridescent Drake to get Karmic Guide allowing you to pull another creature which will most likely be something like Revilark. Is it busted beyond control and needs banned? Nope

Wargate - See Green Sun and Chord of Calling.

Wild Pair - I like this card, it is a 6 cost enchantment and on turn 7 should be able to go infinite but that doesn't mean that it will. I don't see this as a bannable card.

Zur the Enchanter - Now here is an interesting situation. If turn 3 you can pop out a Thraben Doomsayer, Stonybrook School Master, etc. and then on turn 4 swing with this guy getting an Intruder Alarm you have an infinite combo that doesn't do anything until the next turn. Granted there are all sorts of things you can do with this guy to make tons of infinite combos and win on turn 5, Blasting Station, etc. is he broken beyond repair? Nope, I don't think he should even be banned as a commander.

---

So those are IMO the most powerful tutors (unless we talk about Graveyard Recursion which I consider another type of tutoring) and I don't think any of them need banned. I think there are some that we should watch out for, but nothing that is absurdly busted as Gifts Ungiven.


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