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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 12:49 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Serj wrote:
Just out of curiosity was Prime Titan really that degenerate in most peoples play groups? He just didn't seem nearly as broken as the average U shell combo or 5 color combo decks I used to see when we tried having a competitive league. Even more-so when playing casually I've never seen him be that big of a problem or do anything out of the ordinary that a strong artifact package couldn't do already. I could see it being as equally broken as so many other cards in the format if you ramped into him on turn 2 or 3. Even then it just doesn't sound as degenerate or obnoxious to me from what I've seen of "degenerate combo EDH".
No. Not a single deck in our meta game used PT for degenerate things.

It was certainly used for highly effective things, and there were certainly some lopsided games because of him- but that happened already because of other cards. PT was nothing new.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 2:44 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Serj wrote:
Just out of curiosity was Prime Titan really that degenerate in most peoples play groups?


Not really. He got things like Cabal Coffers+Urborg or Cradle+Temple alot. (The latter mostly by me lol). But Black/Green decks don't exactly have a hard time getting Coffer+Urborg active even without the Prime Time, and a Cradle+Deserted Temple isn't super powerful unless one has enough creatures that they're already winning.

The issue, acually, was more of the following:
1. He sometimes got recurred/copied to the point where nearly every land in a players deck was in play every other game. This led a fair number of player to believe that playing mass LD was "fair" to combat Prime Time. And that led to no fun for anyone. :\
2. The explosive Sol Ring or Mana Crypt into turn 2/3 Prime Time tended to make games lopsided, short, unfun, and boring, especially when no one happened to have an immediate answer. (Which they often didn't that early.) There are simply few (if any) cards as cheap as Prime Time that provide both the card advantage and massive mana advantage that Prime Time does.

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Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 12:59 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Tim Proctor wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
EDIT: Relooking at this post, I think we have a difference of understanding of the word "combo". When I or most people here say combo, I/we mean one that is infinite, game winning, recurring, forming a lock, or something of that nature. Your Birthing Pod analogy makes me think that when you say combo, you mean cards that have synergy with each other.


But that is what Protean Hulk does, you ramp up for a couple turns get the hulk out, you sac it get Karmic Guide and another card, Protean Hulk comes back into play and you sac it again and get Restoration Angel and another card, you flicker the Karmic Guide getting the hulk back you sac it and get Enslaved Horror and another card returning Protean Hulk to play, sac it again, and then once you have all the cards you want in the battlefield (i.e. ETBF and LTBF effect guys like Blood Artist) you get Safi and then you sac her then the karmic guide and kill everyone.

That is the reason the card is banned, it like Gifts is a multiple tutor but it puts the creatures onto the battlefield. Protean Hulk should stay banned.

You misunderstand me. I know all of the infinite combo win shit that you can do with PT. I'm talking about the non-combo stuff. When used fairly, Hulk is an awesome tutor and fun card. It's when people start running it with their heads up their butts and thinking, "sweet! Insta-win time!" that it's even remotely bad, and the RC repeatedly states that they don't give a crap about those players.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 1:21 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
All the banned cards used "fairly" can be awesome and fun. Hell, Yawgmoth's Bargain is totally fine as long as you don't play combos, rituals, or drain life effects. But out here in the real world, people do use combo enablers to enable combos.

Painter's Servant's ONLY use is for combos. Why do you talk down to combo players and then ask for this - of all cards - to come off the ban list?

Protean Hulk is a one card combo. To some extent I agree that people who use him as a 1 card combo can be put into the "unfair spike" category that the RC tends not to worry about. On the other hand, I think Hulk also has both the potential and probability to turn innocent green decks into 1 card combo decks are people start resolving its ability and realize how much cooler stuff they could be doing.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 1:36 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-18 7:40 am
Age: Drake
Cards for the ban hammer:

- Mikaeus: Tooth and nail is Mr. Dicks gamewin, thanks to him.

- Contamination: Plain unfun and non interactive. Yawn.

- Time Stretch : Banned everywhere else for good reasons. Endless turns are unfun and non interactive.

- Kiki-Jiki : It's degenerate combo time.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 2:02 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
double post :facepalm: :facepalm:

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Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


Last edited by CrazyPierre on 2012-Sep-23 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 2:03 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
To ban:

Azusa, Lost but Seeking as a Commander.

Azusa's ability makes her obviate the Commander Tax the first time she dies and still be ahead by the other times it happens. Even ignoring this, your opponent will be two or more mana behind as soon as turn two, turn three at worst. Unlike Sol Ring or Mana Vault, Azusa continues to ramp you up, providing more and more lands until you reach an untenable gamestate (one or more Eldrazi, crippled opponent's mana base <Attacked via Acidid Slime, Waste/Strip>) and becomes even more absurd with Crucible of Worlds in the mix. When we talk about Commander base rules impacting things, rendering the tax inconsquential should be a starting point.

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Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 2:15 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Serj wrote:
Just out of curiosity was Prime Titan really that degenerate in most peoples play groups? He just didn't seem nearly as broken as the average U shell combo or 5 color combo decks I used to see when we tried having a competitive league. Even more-so when playing casually I've never seen him be that big of a problem or do anything out of the ordinary that a strong artifact package couldn't do already. I could see it being as equally broken as so many other cards in the format if you ramped into him on turn 2 or 3. Even then it just doesn't sound as degenerate or obnoxious to me from what I've seen of "degenerate combo EDH".


Totally degenerate. He'd either get Wasteland Strip and cripple someone or Urborg/Coffers and turn into a massive Exsanguinate or other BIG SPELL that would swing the game, or he'd die and buddy would reanimate him or he'd get cloned and stolen and then it would all be over...especially if he gets Cradle/Phyrexian Tower/etc.

_________________
Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 2:47 am 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Painter's Servant should be unbanned. Painter/Grindstone isn't a very good combo, and Painter/Iona, Shield of Emeria is no more boring than the legal Teferi,/Knowledge Pool.

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Damia, Sage of Stone - Non-obnoxious goodstuff
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Tokens, recursion, and lifegain
Vorel of the Hull Clade - Abusing counters for fun and profit


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 3:00 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
The only card that isn't on the ban list that I'd like to see added to it for quite a while is Iona, Shield of Emeria.

The card stops other people from playing. It's boring, and it's stupid. Back in September 2011, Erayo was banned as a commander because it was a card "whose sole purpose is to decrease interactivity" among other reasons. Yet, Iona does it without any of the hoops, albeit for one colour.

But, monocolour decks are a thing, especially for newer players who feel they cannot afford the mana bases to support more than one colour, or are starting things off slowly simply because they're new. It sucks to have to play Duplicant/Karn/Spine of Ish Sah/Brittle Effigy in every monocolour deck because the second someone gets a twinkle of Iona in their eye, you're probably totally wrecked. If there was a card left in EDH that simply said you were not allowed to play, Iona is it, and that's why she ought to be banned.

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 4:21 am 
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Joined: 2011-May-02 11:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
The only card that isn't on the ban list that I'd like to see added to it for quite a while is Iona, Shield of Emeria.

The card stops other people from playing. It's boring, and it's stupid. Back in September 2011, Erayo was banned as a commander because it was a card "whose sole purpose is to decrease interactivity" among other reasons. Yet, Iona does it without any of the hoops, albeit for one colour.

But, monocolour decks are a thing, especially for newer players who feel they cannot afford the mana bases to support more than one colour, or are starting things off slowly simply because they're new. It sucks to have to play Duplicant/Karn/Spine of Ish Sah/Brittle Effigy in every monocolour deck because the second someone gets a twinkle of Iona in their eye, you're probably totally wrecked. If there was a card left in EDH that simply said you were not allowed to play, Iona is it, and that's why she ought to be banned.


I agree. Whenever the poor bastard(s) shut down by Iona are just sitting there not able to play, I feel like the card should be immediately set on fire. I have killed her several times and ended up losing just to enable the whole table to play.

Tooth and Nail should definitely be on some kind of watchlist at this point imho. Avacyn, + Novablast Wurm has been happening way too often to my taste, and that's not even one of the degenerate uses. I do play it fairly in my mono-green, but I almost never see it doing anything non-brutality related.

I don't mind infinite combos and locks in general, as long as they end the game immediately. Whether you win by taking infinite turns or swinging for 1500 trample damage shouldn't really matter. Game over is game over.

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Color Pie Project

White: Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant
Blue: Braids, Conjurer Adept
Black: Anowon, the Ruin Sage
Red: Kumano, Master Yamabushi
Green: Omnath, Locus of Mana


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 6:07 am 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-15 12:45 am
Age: Elder Dragon
crokaycete wrote:
Painter's Servant's ONLY use is for combos.

Reaper King tribal scarecrows would like a word with you. :wink:

(Seriously, though, there are also lots of cute synergies with Painter's Servant that don't involve insta-win shenanigans. Combo him with Deathgrip to give mono-black decks access to counterspells. Put him in a green deck to turn Revive into a second Regrowth. Cast him naming red with a Kor Firewalker and a Concerted Effort out, and all your creatures gain protection from everything.)

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 6:55 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
But those are combos, even if they aren't infinite. (Iona/Servant isn't infinite either!)

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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 6:56 am 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
pookel wrote:
(Seriously, though, there are also lots of cute synergies with Painter's Servant that don't involve insta-win shenanigans.

Agreed. There's a hell of a lot more ways to have fun with Painter's Servant than with Knowledge Pool, yet the former is banned and the latter isn't.

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My Commander decks:
Damia, Sage of Stone - Non-obnoxious goodstuff
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Tokens, recursion, and lifegain
Vorel of the Hull Clade - Abusing counters for fun and profit


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 Post subject: Re: What to ban/unban next?
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 9:34 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-07 3:37 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Danbury, CT
I'd like to see a switcheroo where Painter's Servant gets unbanned, and Iona and Grindstone get banned, for pretty much the same reasons everyone else has mentioned. Painter's Servant seems pretty neat, and I think a lot of people would like to play with it. Iona's sort of miserable, and Grindstone doesn't really do anything, so I don't think a lot of players would miss them.

Anyone else getting frustrated with Kiki-Jiki?

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