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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 12:11 am 

Joined: 2011-Oct-31 2:21 am
Age: Wyvern
To bring the discussion back to the banned list changes. I think the banning of Worldfire is ok but why are similar cards allowed, like Death Cloud or Jokulhaups. The argument against Worldfire is that you can flood mana and play your general afterwards. Thats also true for Death Cloud and Jokulhaups. In the case of Jokulhaups it is also far more easy to break the symmetry by playing lots of Planeswalkers or enchantments which helps you post Haups. I know Death Cloud needs in general more mana to be as effective as Worldfire but has the important upside that you can cast it if you are ahead in lands to make this card asymmetric and it can kill players directly if you are ahead in lifetotal. The banned list is full of such inconsistencies which leaves the feeling that the RC is unprofessional and bans only cards which are a problem in their groups.

The banning of Primeval Titan is also controversial. The Commander format is build around battle cruiser magic. So why did the RC ban a battle cruiser which helps to cast more battle cruisers? I ask this rather polemic questing because of the fact that cards like Sol Ring are protected by such arguments. Another thing thats bugs me about this banning is that according the the banning guidelines, cards get banned if the power/answer ratio is not good enough. But Primeval Titan is a creature without any form of protection. And creature removal is the most common answer. So in principle he should die very fast unless all opponents run bad decks without any kind of interaction. So bottom line is you pay 6 mana get 2 lands and he draws a removal spell. Thats okay and totally in line with the spirit of the format. There is nothing unsocial or douchbaggy. But one argument is right from the announcement. Ramp is a very strong strategy in commander. But thats because the format rules are designed in such a way that you can battle with big creature and for big creatures you need mana. Therefore ramp is only a very solid way to achieve the spirit of the format. Banning Prime Time will not solve this issue because there are enough cards to fill the role of the Titan like Boundless Realms. It might be even the case that a lot of non Ramp decks have now a harder time. Because Primeval Titan can get stolen/copied very easily. And than he helps the enemy more than the ramp decks. In my playgroup this praying on the Prime Time got so big that he was removed from the ramp decks. Isn't that a much better way of dealing with such creatures.

Unbanning Kokusho was the right way. The format should be more focused around creature combat and Kokusho is a very solid creature for this purpose. But the RC should have a stronger focus on cards which enable to fast/cheap or to resilient recursion. Fighting against graveyard strategies is a necessity but to which extend is another point.

The idea of the format is very good, but now we are in a stage where the format needs development. Lots of people have very different interpretations about how the game should be played. And the funny thing is all side argue with that they are in the spirit of the format. Just to give an example. Its a 5 FFA two player have in round 8 six lands and 1 or 2 creatures on the field. The other 3 have 20 lands and 6+ battle cruisers each. The 2 player say the other are playing overpowered decks but the 3 argue that the more chaos and stuff they can do the better. Than the 2 player say ok we don't play with you guys anymore. A move that it's very immature but it's even encouraged by the RC. So the 2 player sit together with some others and one of the low power player gets a Genesis running which all other player find douchy. But the low power player defends the card with the argument Genesis is not on the banned list and doesn't harm anyone, it just helps him get more battle cruisers in the game. As an independent observer it's sometimes really funny to see 20+ people argue. Everyone thinks he has the most fun commander deck and all other don't understand the spirit of the format. But whats bugs me the most is you can't help newcomers. If I teach them to run a solid manabase and get their crazy spells out, they stomp other. If I teach them to play a good variety of answers they might stop other people decks to easy. And the banned list doesn't help to establish a power level. If I as a very experienced player have problems to balance my deck in terms of power level how should an average casual player achieve this. The sole purpose of a banned list is to design a game with a specific speed and power level. So that you can play whatever you want without worrying is this card to much. That should be a topic for Sheldon in one of his articles and overall more the focus of the RC.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 12:38 am 
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Joined: 2012-May-11 4:47 pm
Age: Drake
@trischai: First, your argument on Worldfire falls flat with this: the difference between Worldfire and the others is that Worldfire reduces everyone's life to 1. This means that if you abuse it, they have almost no chance of winning. If you don't abuse it, it makes everything else that has happened in the game irrelevant, which is not something that you want. Also, your arguments for how Haups and Cloud are better actually can be turned around against you pretty easily: you don't need to be up on lands/life to win with Worldfire, and your opponents can't count on enchantments or planeswalkers to save them.

Also, while I agree that PT shouldn't have been banned, these are honestly not good arguments. Your question about Sol Ring, Prime Time is simply WAY more powerful then Sol Ring when it comes to strict ramp. Yes, Sol Ring is a house on turn 1-3, but if you get it late game, you probably just drew a dead card unless you're running artifact shenanigans like good Tezzeret. Any time with Prime Time is indeed prime; there is really no bad time for him to hit the field.

Your second arguement, the removal one, is actually contradicted by your arguement about stealing/copying. The problem wasn't people weren't removing him, it's that they'd steal him, copy him first, or reanimate him after they kill him. With how many cards along those lines that people run, it becomes a subgame of "Hot Primeval" until he gets exiled.

Your third argument: no card can replace what Prime Time did. He is unquestionably by far the best at what he does, and the fact that he's a 6/6 trampler on top of that makes it a lot worse. Boundless Realms isn't a creature, so it's way harder to get out, copy, and reuse, and it also can't fetch nonbasics.

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I propose that to solve all the format's problems now and for ever, ban every card in the game that says "library", "search", "destroy", "exile", "all", "battlefield", "graveyard", "draw", "untap", or "damage" on the card. Also, anything with a semi-questionable color identity, anything that is remotely comparable to something on the banlist, and anything that brings up conflicts or loopholes in the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 12:51 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
green slime wrote:
"Exile" is fast becoming just another place some cards are put during the game. rolleyes not withstanding.

Pull from Eternity
Riftsweeper
Mirror of Fate

That is the entire list of cards in Magic that can return cards from exile. One of them is nearly unplayable and the other two were printed in Time Spiral block. How exactly is the exile zone "becoming" more accessible when there hasn't been a playable card printed that interacts with it in five years?

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When casting Elephant Ambush, it is appropriate to yell "I was behind the tree, you stupid bastard" to announce the spell.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 12:56 am 
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Joined: 2012-May-11 4:47 pm
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pookel wrote:
green slime wrote:
"Exile" is fast becoming just another place some cards are put during the game. rolleyes not withstanding.

Pull from Eternity
Riftsweeper
Mirror of Fate

That is the entire list of cards in Magic that can return cards from exile. One of them is nearly unplayable and the other two were printed in Time Spiral block. How exactly is the exile zone "becoming" more accessible when there hasn't been a playable card printed that interacts with it in five years?

"Oh! Riftsweeper came from the set Future Sight, so they're gonna do more stuff based on him!!" :facepalm:

_________________
I propose that to solve all the format's problems now and for ever, ban every card in the game that says "library", "search", "destroy", "exile", "all", "battlefield", "graveyard", "draw", "untap", or "damage" on the card. Also, anything with a semi-questionable color identity, anything that is remotely comparable to something on the banlist, and anything that brings up conflicts or loopholes in the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 1:23 am 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-15 12:45 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Mind you, in the right GW deck you can Karmic Guide/Lark/Emeria/Reya your Riftsweeper and Regrowth/E-Wit/Noxious Revival your Pull From Eternity until everyone at the table is ready to kill you*, but it's not like the availability of those kinds of cards has changed substantially in the last five years.

* I may have done this in my Saffi deck a few times.

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crokaycete wrote:
When casting Elephant Ambush, it is appropriate to yell "I was behind the tree, you stupid bastard" to announce the spell.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 1:32 am 

Joined: 2011-Oct-31 2:21 am
Age: Wyvern
@Master Baiter

Wordlfire/Deathcloud topic

I dont see your point. If i play deathcloud while I am 6 lands ahead i start the new game with 6 lands and all other player with 0. Thats far more abusive than Worldfire. Okay Worldfire can let you "catch up" if you are behind but that also possible with Haups effects and the deck with mass ld + board wipe is prepared for it. The others are not. Even if there is a small fall out because the opponents got some enchantments or walker left the haups deck has far batter chance to come ahead because the whole deck is build around it.

Primeval Titan topic

I would say the bad time for the Titan is when you don't have enough mana for him. 6 Mana is a lot in Magic. But my point was more the argument for sol ring and co. It helps the mana so you can cast the crazy stuff. But than they ban the Titan because it does the same thing just for 6 Mana?

But the removal issue is far more improtant. Stealing copying is a form of removal. If my opp plays the Titan and I play Clone. I have parity. We both now have a titan and can battle all the while our manabase improves so that we can cast more stuff. Total win in my book. Even if I play Terror on the Titan I have only invested 2 mana and my opponent 6. Combine this with a Beacon of Unrest and you have pure profit. Of course the Prime Time player can do the same but thats the nature of magic and interaction itself. My point is that you can actively interact with a Titan and come out ahead because the answers are still cheaper than the treats in the case of a 6 Mana creature without any kind of protection.

Why is this subgame of Hot Primeval so bad. It advances the game state. Helps every one who is an active part of the game. It only punishes the bad player who are not prepared for battle cruiser magic. And even if this hot Primeval subgame is bad than why is Kokusho back and more important why is Consecrated Sphinx still legal. Coping/Stealing the Sphinx is far more potent than the Titan.

Of course the Titan is a nice package but in most cases the ramp deck wants the ramp part the 6/6 is a nice bonus. With the downside that it is very vulnerable unlike Boundless Realms. The only reasonable way the prevent Boundless Realms is the forbid searching or counter it. Thats very narrow and would also stop the important part of the titan. But once B Realms has resolved the player got at least 7 mana and only very few cards can help you catch up. I don't want to argue that Realms is better than Titan but that the argument "he is good at ramp" is void if you can replace him so easily. I'm happy to fight against big fatties with splashy effects which promote attacking and have a reasonable interaction window than to fight against overpowered sorceries/instants.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 1:52 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
pookel wrote:
green slime wrote:
"Exile" is fast becoming just another place some cards are put during the game. rolleyes not withstanding.

Pull from Eternity
Riftsweeper
Mirror of Fate

That is the entire list of cards in Magic that can return cards from exile. One of them is nearly unplayable and the other two were printed in Time Spiral block. How exactly is the exile zone "becoming" more accessible when there hasn't been a playable card printed that interacts with it in five years?


I hope you don't mean the Mirror? It's combo's #1 fan boy.

_________________
Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 1:58 am 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-15 12:45 am
Age: Elder Dragon
zimagic wrote:
pookel wrote:
green slime wrote:
"Exile" is fast becoming just another place some cards are put during the game. rolleyes not withstanding.

Pull from Eternity
Riftsweeper
Mirror of Fate

That is the entire list of cards in Magic that can return cards from exile. One of them is nearly unplayable and the other two were printed in Time Spiral block. How exactly is the exile zone "becoming" more accessible when there hasn't been a playable card printed that interacts with it in five years?


I hope you don't mean the Mirror? It's combo's #1 fan boy.

OK, I should have said "nearly unplayable except in decks specifically built to combo off it." I mean, you can't just throw a Mirror into a normal deck to protect your best cards from GY hate, the way you can with the other two.

Also, the Mirror is from 2010, so it's still not an example of some kind of new trend.

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crokaycete wrote:
When casting Elephant Ambush, it is appropriate to yell "I was behind the tree, you stupid bastard" to announce the spell.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 2:07 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
trischai wrote:
Why is this subgame of Hot Primeval so bad. It advances the game state. Helps every one who is an active part of the game. It only punishes the bad player who are not prepared for battle cruiser magic.

So, if I understand correctly, what you are saying is that if you don't run PT or run ways to take other people's PT, you're a bad player?


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 2:11 am 

Joined: 2011-Oct-31 2:21 am
Age: Wyvern
No the point is if your deck cant interact with fatties you are a bad player. Creatures are the most basic thing in magic so your deck should be able to interact with them. Either by playing more and bigger creatures or destroy, steal, copy ... the creatures that are bothering you.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 2:21 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
trischai wrote:
No the point is if your deck cant interact with fatties you are a bad player. Lands are the most basic thing in magic so your deck should be able to interact with them. Either by playing more and bigger creatures or destroy, steal, copy ... the creatures that are bothering you.




Fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 2:26 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
trischai wrote:
No the point is if your deck cant interact with fatties you are a bad player. Creatures are the most basic thing in magic so your deck should be able to interact with them. Either by playing more and bigger creatures or destroy, steal, copy ... the creatures that are bothering you.

But this issue with Primeval Titan was never just "I can't interact with fatties". It was that he was one of the best fatties printed to the point where the entire meta warped to abuse him. In fact, if he was a 1/1 I doubt he would have seen any less play. If he was a 6/6 trampling french vanilla for 6 do you think he would have seen any play? No, because being a fatty wasn't why he got played. It was just icing on the cake. Also, packing a Doom Blade in you deck to "interact with fatties" does nothing little against PT, because the problem was just as much him being a creature as it was his tutoring ability. To effectively deal with the simple act of casting PT, you need a Doom Blade and two Strip Mines in order to affect solely the caster.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 2:28 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
trischai wrote:
No the point is if your deck cant interact with fatties you are a bad player. Creatures are the most basic thing in magic so your deck should be able to interact with them. Either by playing more and bigger creatures or destroy, steal, copy ... the creatures that are bothering you.

But this issue with Primeval Titan was never just "I can't interact with fatties". It was that he was one of the best fatties printed to the point where the entire meta warped to abuse him. In fact, if he was a 1/1 I doubt he would have seen any less play. If he was a 6/6 trampling french vanilla for 6 do you think he would have seen any play? No, because being a fatty wasn't why he got played. It was just icing on the cake. Also, packing a Doom Blade in you deck to "interact with fatties" does nothing little against PT, because the problem was just as much him being a creature as it was his tutoring ability. To effectively deal with the simple act of casting PT, you need a Doom Blade and two Strip Mines in order to affect solely the caster.


Or a Stifle/Voidlslime


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 2:37 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Joz wrote:
cryogen wrote:
trischai wrote:
No the point is if your deck cant interact with fatties you are a bad player. Creatures are the most basic thing in magic so your deck should be able to interact with them. Either by playing more and bigger creatures or destroy, steal, copy ... the creatures that are bothering you.

But this issue with Primeval Titan was never just "I can't interact with fatties". It was that he was one of the best fatties printed to the point where the entire meta warped to abuse him. In fact, if he was a 1/1 I doubt he would have seen any less play. If he was a 6/6 trampling french vanilla for 6 do you think he would have seen any play? No, because being a fatty wasn't why he got played. It was just icing on the cake. Also, packing a Doom Blade in you deck to "interact with fatties" does nothing little against PT, because the problem was just as much him being a creature as it was his tutoring ability. To effectively deal with the simple act of casting PT, you need a Doom Blade and two Strip Mines in order to affect solely the caster.


Or a Stifle/Voidlslime

No comments from the peanut gallery. I was speaking in a broad sense, not in a "this broken card is totes fair because of THIS ONE SPECIFIC ANSWER".


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-20 2:50 am 

Joined: 2011-Oct-31 2:21 am
Age: Wyvern
That simple removal spells are not able to fully negate a 6+ mana creature is a good development from wizards. If spells like Doom Blade could completely counter a fatty it would make no sense to play them in the first place. Due to the new spells on legs it is far more easy to play creatures and still be on par with control decks. Which is a very good thing for casual games. Primeval Titan is only one in a whole family of fatties and in each new edition there will be more good 6+ creatures like Sphinx of Uthuun or Runescared Demon or Avenger of Zendika or Woodfall Primus.

If you can't handle a Titan how can you fight against the "abuse" of one of the above creatures. Depending on the game state it can be far more profitable to play a kicked Rite of Replication on anyone of them.

And just for the arguments sake to counter a Titan you just have to play a Clone. And even if you killed him only with Doom Blade the opp has only 2 lands more. Thats fair considering that you killed his 6 mana investment with 2 mana.


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