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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-18 5:24 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-19 12:15 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Sacramento, CA
Sheldon wrote:
We knew this would be a polarizing decision. I'm fine with letting folks vent. I would, however, not mind seeing a "Here's why this is an unhealthy decision for the format" argument as opposed to "This sucks because I abused the hell out of that card!"

Previously, Primeval Titan's status wan unbanned.

Now the RC says Primeval Titan should be banned.

Put in the metaphor of a trial. Primeval Titan is the defendant. The RC is the prosecutor (and unfortunately for Primeval Titan, the judge and jury).

The burden of proof lies on the prosecution to prove Primeval Titan should be banned.

Not on the players to prove it should remain unbanned.

Furthermore, I've heard time and again on these forums that complaining (or giving an opinion) about the rules will change nothing.

Why then should we justify or clarify our complaints if they accomplish nothing?

If our complaints are eloquent enough will the RC change its mind?

The resounding consensus seems to be no.

Personally, I would prefer it if Primeval Titan only fetched basic land types.

But the RC does not errata cards. They either ban or unban.

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Marchesa, the Black Rose
Mayael the Anima


Last edited by Celerus on 2012-Sep-20 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-18 6:02 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Benjammn wrote:
This is the first time that a card has been banned for just format-warping.


Ironic given that a) it wasn't banned for just being format-warping (though it is) and b) in the very same announcement, when talking about Kokusho, it says "It's appropriate that Kokusho comes off at the same time as Prime Time goes on, as Kokusho was originally banned along the same lines."


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-18 6:08 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
Man, the comments on Sheldon's article over on SCG...

Whenever a change comes down, the sky falls with it, apparently. :roll:

Image

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EDH Decks:
Wort, the Raidmother - Conspire!
Mayael the Anima - Fatties!
Hazezon Tamar - Tokens!
Nicol Bolas - Creatureless!
Kresh, the Bloodbraided - Red Zone Aggression!
Teneb, the Harvester - Graveyard!
Sharuum the Hegemon - Artifacts!
Experiment Kraj - +1/+1 counters!
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage - Big Red!
Oros, the Avenger - Stuff!


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-18 6:25 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-14 5:45 pm
Age: Drake
Location: US
Primeval Titan is an issue but The big blue Sphinx is ok? I'm sorry not agreeing with this at all.

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Embrace the Elements

Omnath, Locus of Mana - Ramp/Stomp
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave - Scavenge/Counters
Animar, Soul of Elements - Primal Surge


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-18 7:06 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
Joz wrote:
But Prime Time made four of my decks competitive enough to play in my group...he's gone now, and im going to have to put in douche cards just to keep up...Whorinclex, Iona, etc...


I feel the same, but on the other hand: it's not as if everyone else wasn't running PT, and they're losing it as well. Considering that, are your decks that much worse off without PT in the format?

I have a sealed box of FTV: Dragons that I intended to trade away for some time (but failed to do so). Right now I'm inclined to open it for the Kokusho in it, or I could just try to find one on the cheap. That's how I end up with stuff like 4x Personal Tutor though, maybe I should just realise that Kokusho won't be going into my Glissa deck anyway... choices, choices. Would 7.5 euro be a good price for a Kokusho right now?

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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-18 10:32 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-23 10:03 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: The Netherlands - Hoorn
I expected Kokusho to be unbanned a long time ago, so I bought a playset FTV foil Kokusho's in advance. Right now I'm thinking about a replacement for Primetime though. In Teneb Knight of the Reliquary could be a nice replacer, but then I want Life from the Loam in the deck as well. I don't have a Demonic Tutor in my Sek'Kuar deck so that should simply go in instead of Titan. At first I thought of Sylvan Scrying but why not just play Demonic instead :P Damia is sad though, there really isn't a good creature (since Damia is creature only) that can replace him.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-18 10:50 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-08 9:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
No more Prine Time? I guess it (puts on glasses) must be ten o'clock.

YEAHHHHHHHHHH

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Current generals:

Thraxiumundar - Sacrifice Effects
Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro - Shaman Tribal Ramp
Darien, King of Kjeldor - Go Ahead and Attack
Talrand, Sky Summoner - Nothin' but Counters, Bounce & Draw


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-18 11:06 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-21 3:30 am
Age: Wyvern
Disappointed in Worldfire as I have not had a chance to use it yet, and I got it in foil because of the art.

Extremely pleased about Kokusho coming back in.

Double-extremely pleased about Primeval Titan's stranglehold on the format being broken.

I am also unable to accuse the RC of being flagrantly pro-green any more :)


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-19 1:15 am 

Joined: 2009-Sep-28 1:08 pm
Age: Hatchling
papa_funk wrote:
Benjammn wrote:
This is the first time that a card has been banned for just format-warping.


Ironic given that a) it wasn't banned for just being format-warping (though it is) and b) in the very same announcement, when talking about Kokusho, it says "It's appropriate that Kokusho comes off at the same time as Prime Time goes on, as Kokusho was originally banned along the same lines."


They said that games involving Primeval Titan completely utterly focus on interacting with Primeval Titan through copying, countering, reanimating, and so forth. The qualities of banned cards are as follows:

1) Creates Undesirable Games / Game Situations, which applies to cards like Worldfire and Biorhythm.
2) Warps the Format Strategically, which applies to Primeval Titan and all of the very strong cards like Griselbrand and Gifts Ungiven if they were allowed.
3) Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly, which applies to Tolarian Academy and P9.
4) Interacts Badly with the Structure of Commander, which applies to Rofellos, Kokusho, and Karakas.
5) Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry, which applies to P9 and Library of Alexandria.

Primeval Titan only Warps the Format Strategically. All of the other cards either fall into different categories (which are bigger problems) or fall into that category along with another.

Also, Kokusho should have just been banned as a general in the first place. Having Kokusho always available was what made it so strong in the first place. Ergo, Kokusho was strong because of the mechanics of Commander, not just because it was format-warping. Primeval Titan not being legendary makes the comparison irrelevant.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-19 1:40 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Odd that Koko comes off and Titan goes on. Titan was easy to deal with via combo or mass LD, though I guess if your group soft-bans both of those then ramp is just hands-down the best strategy. I wonder how long Kokusho will stay unbanned, though.

EDIT: I guess I'm just surprised because I don't think this ban does anything to change the logic of ramp just being the best deck out there for the majority of play groups. If there's too much ramp in the wild, you either need to encourage some Armageddons, encourage some combo, or ban a lot more cards.

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kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-19 1:52 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 5:13 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Midwest USA
I honestly can't remember a game I've recently played that didn't have at least one person playing Primeval Titan titan during it. It'll be interesting to see how games play out without him. I refused for a long time to put him in any of my decks trying to be a positive example for deck building. That didn't work so much unfortunately. I thought it was kind of funny that the minute I break down and put him in a deck he gets banned.

It'll also be interesting to see how Kokusho affects games as well. I honestly wonder if it'll actually be a positive for the format.

Also, to the people who are saying that they're just going to have to start using other things that people hate - did you not read the rest of the philosophy or did you just choose to ignore what it was trying to get across? I've noticed quite a bit of uproar about the bannings, but basically nothing about them clarifying the philosophy...


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-19 3:02 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Benjammn wrote:
They said that games involving Primeval Titan completely utterly focus on interacting with Primeval Titan through copying, countering, reanimating, and so forth.


This continues to be ironic, because a) the announcement says nothing of the sort (though again, not untrue) and b) that's almost exactly what was said about Kokusho when it got banned.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-19 3:25 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-19 6:19 am
Age: Dragon
Strongly support this ban. Games were getting defined by who was best equipped to get out and use Primeval Titan.

I'm hoping we'll see a few ripple effects, in addition to tutors becoming more varied now. I expect blue players will start playing Clone effects less often. Oh, sure, they'll be played, but they won't run literally every clone effect that exists solely to make sure they have one on hand when a Primeval Titan hits the table. As a consequence, commanders will see more play rather than being legend ruled pretty much immediately, and we'll see more people actually getting rid of a single threat that defines a game instead of trying to get a slice of the pie themselves. I therefore expect Consecrated Sphinx (which people are geerally more reluctant to clone for obvious reasons) to become a bit more fair.

Next ripple effect: a player casting a series of gigantic bombs in one turn will hopefully be a rarer occurrence, both because players will have less handsand because. Therefore, when a bomb hits the table, it'll be more momentous.

Finally, Avenger of Zendikar will still be a game-ender, but will have to take time to create a dominating position rather than just spawning about 20 plants and beating face out of nowhere.

All in all, I'm looking forward to the surge in creativity and more purely synergistic decks.

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Patrick Sullivan wrote:
Your opponent might not be a rocket scientist when he kills you with Primeval Titan but you didn't exactly discover time travel by deciding to Mana Leak it.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-19 3:52 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
IotaNull wrote:
All in all, I'm looking forward to the surge in creativity and more purely synergistic decks.

These decks are still going to lose to the "Ramp into Bombs" decks. Prime Time may have been the most egregious symptom of the problem, but the two most effective counters to ramp decks - combo and mass mana denial - are still "virtually" banned by most play groups. Synergy decks are still going to lose to the raw power of durdling for four-five turns and then landing a nonstop stream of haymakers.

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kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-19 4:05 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Benjammn wrote:
I don't like what the ban on Primeval Titan means for Commander. This is the first time that a card has been banned for just format-warping. Now, you say this is a criterion for being a banned card, yes? That's true, but there's a difference between format-warping and -breaking and I think only the truly serious offenders/breakers need to be banned.
Kokushu says 'Hi, I was banned for a LONG time due to that. Welcome me back and forget that BROKEN card'.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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