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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-14 3:41 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uriel wrote:
I would really like to learn...If I hear something actually new and not the same reply over and over again.
No you don't. You want to keep recycling the same incorect assumptions. I am done here, you have not listened at all. Good day.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-14 6:44 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uriel wrote:
At least I put and discussing about 20 or more arguments in favor of the Titan, bringing in the threads: ... So are we that sure that is me who is repeating all over and over the same point as a broken disk?


Yes, yes we are. All of these points have been addressed. You're like a Fox News commentator that just repeats the talking points and when they points get answered you go to a new one and then repeat from the start all over again thinking that everyone is too dumb to remember your first points. You're like a clown in one of the miniature cars riding around the circus honking the horn over and over again (at least that is how I envision it). Oh and if you think that I'm flaming you, then put on your big boy pants because I haven't even come close.

Uriel wrote:
- cards that tutoring non basic lands like the Titan from the very beginning of the game.


There are none, no freaking card in the entire game tutors non-basic lands 'like' the Titan. None, there are some that require the sac of a land in play, ones that put into hand, and some that will put one into play, but there are NONE that put 2 into play as well as a 6/6 Trampler that gets 2 more lands next turn and the next two. There is nothing like the Titan, nothing.

Uriel wrote:
- cards that gives you more enormous board-land advantage as the Boundless Realms then the Titan with his EtB ability.


Boundless Realms costs 1 more, doesn't include a 6/6 trampler, gets only basics. Assuming you cast on turn 7 you get 7 lands. By Turn 7 with the (assuming casting on turn 6) Titan you got 4 non-basics and a 6/6 Trampler.

Uriel wrote:
- cards that gives you much more mana then the Titan the turn you put in play (Mirari, Mana Reflection)


Mirari's Wake if cast on turn 5 and assuming a turn 6 land allows you for ramping of 6, plus all your other creatures get +1/+1. Its a really cool card but on turn 7 you got a total ramp of 13 from the Mirari split between two turns. A person with Vesuva (targeting the Coffers you're getting + Cabal Coffers from the Titan drop and then Gaea's Cradle + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth from the swing gets 18 ramp mana. Mana Reflection ends up worse than the wake. The PT's difference will be bigger and bigger than the other two.

Uriel wrote:
- cards that really are an autoinclude in every deck and gives enormous advantage to a player from the very early turns of game (Sensei Top, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring)


Some people don't even play with those cards, there is no such thing as an auto-include and if there were there would be so many of them that it would be an entire deck itself. But all of those auto-includes only help you get the Titan out quicker.

Uriel wrote:
- cards that when are in play are actually warping the board as who steal it or kill it first (as Ulamog)


Cards don't get banned for 'board' warping, they get banned for 'format' warping. While Ulamog is a great card there are a hundred and one ways to deal with it, I usually just tap it down with 1 cost tapper. But you're the Fox News commentator again comparing public education (costs 6) to Stalin ruled USSR (costs 11), Ulamog has nothing to do with the Titan whatsoever other than they are creatures.

Uriel wrote:
- cards that are much more unfun stroking one or more players decimating his life points with just casting the spell


I assume you're talking about Sorin Markov and Magister Sphinx and again you're way out in left field comparing not apples to oranges but apples to chess pieces. These guys have nothing in common here, this is a logical fallacy of comparing things that don't compare and then saying that they do. You're the clown telling people that the bear on the ball is comparable to the trapeze artists. But for the sake or argument and we'll go with Magister Sphinx cause at least both creatures and compare them with only the two in a bubble (which don't exist in magic). Turn 6 Prime Time getting Dryad Arbor + Gaea's Cradle, Turn 7 Magister Sphinx my life is @ 10, Prime Time swings getting Khalni Garden + Maze of Ith (lets see how big the cradle can get with only lands?), life totals are 10 vs 34. Turn 8 sphinx swings life is at 5 (ouch), PT, Arbor swing getting Sapseep Forest and Graypelt Refuge (just in case that guy can vindicate the maze might as well buy another turn right). Life totals 6 and 27. Turn 9 Sphinx can't get passed the Maze so it is untapped, Prime Time swings getting Cathedral of War + Mystifying Maze (might as well flicker the sphinx and get life out of it, right?), the guy doesn't want to lose the sphinx so he takes 7 to the dome. Life totals 7 and 20. After this it is redundant, doesn't matter the PT wins in a Sphinx race. Against Sorin its even quicker. Not a fair comparison but even if the PT gets mediocre lands he still wins because he gets the resources, outside that bubble the PT gets really stupid.

Uriel wrote:
- cards that gives enormous cards advantage which can control the board with counterspell and other lock cards typical of their color (Necro, Sphinx) doing stuff much worse then lands


You really do like logical fallacies don't you? You're comparing things that don't compare well or at all. So lets say that PT vs Sphinx again, this time to even things up PT player can't play anything cause it all gets counterspelled and sphinx can't play anything cause all their resources are spent counterspelling. PT still has the ability to cheat stuff into play for free with cards like Dark Depths after the Urborg and Coffers combo, or more over Cathedral of War and Spinerock Knoll. The PT will win the race but realistically Green has a significant amount of card draw to draw enough to wear out the resources of the blue player to be able to counterspell everything, or they get the lands that allow them to cast without being countered like Boseiju, Who Shelters All and Cavern of Souls. Since you get to search them out you get the options and the options are what makes the PT so good.

Uriel wrote:
- cards that are much more unfair and unfun stroking one or more players decimating his life points with just casting the spell


For a person that doesn't repeat themselves you did, you covered this 2 points above. I'm guessing its just a clerical error and that you're not inserting it again to make your 20 points argument right?

Uriel wrote:
- cards that are much more unfair and unfun with one-shoot kill move as the Blighsteel Colossus


CMC 6 vs 11, apples and a can of pledge. The PT still gets to get the mazes out to stop the Blightsteel in its tracks if wanted. But people that play Blightsteel run a big risk of just being instagibbed themselves. Grab the Reins, Dong Zhou, the Tyrant, Reflect Damage, etc. If I had 5 turns with a PT out in a 1v1 race against the Blightsteel the PT player would win (already demonstrated many ways of that happening).

Uriel wrote:
- cards that are much more unfair and unfun and antisocial destroying all the mana source of all opponents. And still not banned


Mass Land Destruction isn't unfair nor is it unfun by itself, but isn't that your answer to PT by geddoning the lands? So you want to remove your answer to PT and bring PT back in? Also you're comparing crap that doesn't go together again. I guess you're comparing these on the 'fun' factor but you yourself keep saying that you understand fun differently than many of the people on this board. Your arguments are in the area of ridiculous now, like you're frantically scrambling for answers because you really really really want to win this issue, when in fact you already lost.

Uriel wrote:
- threads and statistic where actually people got no problem about the Titan (even in this same forum and even after was banned)


The RC has it in the rules:

Quote:
The following is the official banned list for commander games. These cards (and others like them) should not be played without prior agreement from the other players in the game.


If you want to play PT and you are with a group of people that also want to, you can. So go do it, it is perfectly legal and within the rules. The assumption is that PT is not allowed and you do need to talk to the prior to the game. But this point is null because the RC already has made a special exception for people who feel similar to you.

Uriel wrote:
- cards with are much more nasty with graveyard recursion and destroying all the stuff of every player as the Woodfall Primus, the Terastodon or the Angel of the Despair in a Karador or Teneb deck.


Again comparing different things. So someone has a graveyard deck, they pop out Karador as their Commander, PT can go search for Bojuka Bog and one of the bounce lands and shut it down, cause every turn you'd get to do this. The PT's ability to tutor up answers in an uncounterable form is really stupid good.

Uriel wrote:
- cards that actually as the Titan even more degenerative than him as the sets are coming out coz of the higher power creep (Kaalia and QuickSilver Amulet)


Kaalia is good and so is the Amulet but comparing them to the PT doesn't make any case, except that if you 'cheat' stuff into play that costs a lot you get really cool effects. I'm guessing the comparison is which one can get something out quicker right? I guess the best play is Kaalia and Iona naming green which shuts down the PT and since Kaalia is the commander all you have to do is have Iona in your hand. I'd say Kaalia would probably win this except is someone is playing a Monogreen land ramp build around PT deck its probably Azusa, Lost but Seeking. Meaning a turn 5 PT because you spent turn 4 killing Kaalia before she could swing with one of the many many Green anti-flying cards out there. If Kaalia wasn't so much flying (its all flying) and if green didn't have so many answers to shut down a flying player I'd probably give the answer to Kaalia, but Kaalia it has to be an Angel, Demon or Dragon and has to be in your hand while PT tutors for answers. This is one of the issues where you can't compare in a bubble because if you do you lose the assumption that you have something to cheat into play while PT gets to search for it and break the bubble.

Uriel wrote:
- the fact that it can't be an autowin card and you even must to wait a turn to use the lands you bring with the Titan (rather then cards like SplinterTwin which they just win the same turn they came in play if you only got another combo piece)


Another comparison that doesn't makes sense. So for a winning-ness factor here for 2 card combos huh? I'd say PT and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, your Pestermites are auto-dead, your Exarchs are auto-worthless, your Village Bell-Ringers are auto-worthless, etc. Or even better Rakdos Charm since it costs less. If someone gets to pick any two cards there are infinite combos out there no doubt the ability to pick answers for it. With tokens there are just a whole bunch Echoing Truth, etc.

Moreover, your point is null because it would destroy the format to ban every 2 and 3 card infinite combo. You'd have to ban Splinter Twin, Kikki-Jikki, Mind Over Matter, Triskelion, Intruder Alarm, Doubling Cube, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. and the ban list would be enormous.

If it is PT verses this infinite combo then I guess we're stuck with Glacial Chasm and Ice Floe (unless they picked Pestermite) and then tap down their guy at the end of their turn so you can swing while there aren't any tokens and keep getting bounce lands out to keep the Chasm from getting too expensive.

Uriel wrote:
- the fact that is not comparable in power and unfunness of any of the cards in the ban list.


You are obviously good at comparing cards that don't compare well so I'm interested to see how you draw the line here. If any it would be the Protean Hulk as they are both green creatures, same power and toughness and both tutor for 2 different cards. In a vacuum I'd get PT fetching Maze of Ith (so I could attack and ensure that the PH wouldn't die) and
Ice Floe so that I can swing and wont kill the PH. After that I'd just beat you into oblivion. But this is a bad comparison in a bubble.

Uriel wrote:
- the fact that if I would bribery something I would bribery a random eldrazi rather then just a ignorant ramp creature.


This is so situationally depended that it is really freaking hard to discuss. In fact its nearly impossible, and I don't even know where in the magical land of make believe to start this. I guess I'll start if by a birbery for a bribery, you get Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, I get Flickerwisp, Glimmerpoint Stag, Fiend Hunter, Angel of Serenity, Man-O'-War,Aether Adept, Duplicant, Faceless Butcher, Kederekt Leviathan, Phyrexian Ingester, Riftwing Cloudskate, Frost Titan, Sower of Temptation, Blazing Archon, Magus of the Moat, Peacekeeper, Stormtide Leviathan, Brooding Saurian, etc. The ability to get something with an 'enters the battlefield' effect is gonna win out on an Eldrazi almost everytime.

But comparing it PT more than likely you turn 5 bribery my Ulamog, Turn 6 I PT getting Glacial Chasm or Ice Floe and Homeward Path so that I get my Ulamog back and beat the living crap out of you with it. The ability for PT to dig up answers in an uncounterable form is super good.

Uriel wrote:
- lock cards which when are not removed are far worse and unfun then the Titan (Erayo, Hokory Dust Drinker...the last one you can even use it as a General!), and still are not banned.


I don't see a problem with any of those and you've mentioned that 'fun' is taste specific, but for the sake of you not being able to say 'no one answered my point', PT gets out the lands that allow things not to be countered solving the Erayo issue, because you cast 1 spell that can't be countered and then it isn't the first spell cast and then it isn't countered. Hokori, Dust Drinker is victim to the massive amounts of anti-flying spells green has and bounce lands allow the PT to untap something for 2 and ensure a land play while the Hokori gets domed on the head for 6 a turn.

Uriel wrote:
- Especially in multyplayer if a player get too much advantage to others, the others will just kick him for reput an equilibrium on the board.


The same point can be made for the person that played Hokori, bribed an Eldrazi, plays card from the ban list, plays Sorin and knocks someone to 10, is recurring the primus with Karador, etc. This point is null on so many levels as it answers just about every point you made earlier. But like you said PT isn't that busted and its threat assessment is lower than a lot of the other cards mentioned above (even though it can deal with just about all of them), so the chances of someone drawing mass ire from PT versus Splinter Twin is totally different.

Uriel wrote:
- That if you want to play Spike, no matter if the Titan is banned, the Spike players will ruin the game anyway with cards that are EDH legal and win before the turn six. Is the point that doesn't actually really matter for most of cases what you ban but in what hands you give the Magic cards.


No one can control whether you play with a Spike or not except you, do you want to RC to ban Spike players or is this just a general complaint?

Uriel wrote:
- If I wke ould lia really serious board advantage I would play a Genesis Wave or a Tutor recyclable every single turn of game (like Demonic Collusion or Planar Portal, or even better a Vampiric Tutor imprint it in a Isochron Scepter) and not just tapped lands even if nonbasic and that's it. Titan is just too slow for realize my plans of victory in compare of those.


The Titan is rarely the only ramp that people play, more than likely its just a piece to the puzzle to get an end-game effect going on. But again this is a null point as having one doesn't exclude the others and the Titan didn't get banned solely for the board advantage, it got banned for the situational advantage it provided and the different methods to manipulate that advantage.

Uriel wrote:
- broken cards very unlikely to remove at very first turns of game and especially in multyplayer kick the ass of everybody from even turn three or four (Luminarch Ascension, Erayo again).


I've already answered how PT can beat Erayo, how does it deal with Luminarch Ascension? I don't know nor do I care because according to you "in multyplayer if a player get too much advantage to others, the others will just kick him for reput an equilibrium on the board" so I don't have to know nor do I have to provide an answer because someone else will. In a 1v1 game the Luminarch is actually not very good so I don't care.

Uriel wrote:
Etc, etc. And I can continue to bring about more stuff to think about it, but I think that this is more then enough.


I think this is more than enough, more than enough examples to show that you're playing the same dog and pony show over and over again with different card examples and everytime PT shows that it has answers to so many of the issues you're talking about. The constant ability to find answers to so many situations is what got PT banned, it is what led to degenerate issues with the format, etc.

Uriel wrote:
And, in other hands, in all this stuff that I bring in the discussion what are the same, repeatedly answers that I receive in the thread?

"Tutoring non-basic lands is just more degenerative and board advantage of any of the other cards you mentioned. Period"

"Titan is warping, everybody wants to abuse it if he's in play" (yeah, like nobody likes to abuse a Eldrazi if got a chance to do so)

"Titan is get more degenerative every sets come out" (already answer to that too and with no pertinent reply of somebody)


If that is all you 'listened' to for the last couple pages then you sir are a piece of work who posts long ass posts that don't hold water and refuse to actually read anything that people are telling you. You completely wasted the time of many people that were trying to address your issue in a civilized manner while you were uncivilized and took what people were telling you (and they told you in a respectful manner) and disregarded it because you aren't here to discuss the issue you're here to troll and waste people's time.

I think this was good because there are a lot of people that read these forums and are trying to understand why PT was banned in an in depth manner and reading this thread will show people how to answer the questions that the LGS troll posses when they raise a ruckus for their own entertainment.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-14 7:48 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-04 3:38 pm
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Tim Proctor
Quote:
You completely wasted the time of many people that were trying to address your issue in a civilized manner while you were uncivilized


I'm sorry? Are you really the one talking of "civilized manner" while you just insult me (clown, thief, cheater) in your last post while I never attack to the personal nobody? You must be kidding me. You know what said somebody?

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."


Quote:
No one can control whether you play with a Spike or not except you, do you want to RC to ban Spike players or is this just a general complaint?


No, I would like that people actually knew the meaning of "gentlemen agreedment" and not just arguing : "Is in the banlist, you can't play it. Duh.", because looks like this points is not clear at all to many people

Quote:
he same point can be made for the person that played Hokori, bribed an Eldrazi, plays card from the ban list, plays Sorin and knocks someone to 10, is recurring the primus with Karador, etc


Yes, and in fact my point is not that they should be banned, but that they are all perfectly answerable and that's why none of them worth the ban.

Quote:
PT gets out the lands that allow things not to be countered solving the Erayo issue


But so what? Even the Reliquiary Knight solve the problem of tutoring lands with Erayo, is not this the point. The point is, that if you actually flip Erayo in the early turns (and so even before PT enter in the battlefield) it ruins the fun of game of everybody and I say that is preferable the Titan then this situation.

Quote:
Hokori, Dust Drinker is victim to the massive amounts of anti-flying spells green has


Hokori doesn't fly so it don't get the point of this one. And the best thing green does are not actually the removals, actually compare to black and white, is one of the worsest color for removal.

Quote:
has and bounce lands allow the PT to untap something for 2 and ensure a land play while the Hokori gets domed on the head for 6 a turn.


Oh, please not fantamagic now. Hokory is a pain in the ass in any normal situation, and even at the best cases it just slow, stop and lock everybody while is far more likely that the Hokory player will have cards like Unwinding Clock or Sword of Feast and Famine. Besides is more likely that Hokory will came to play even before the PT, screwing up even that.


Quote:
But comparing it PT more than likely you turn 5 bribery my Ulamog, Turn 6 I PT getting Glacial Chasm or Ice Floe and Homeward Path so that I get my Ulamog back and beat the living crap out of you with it.


Yeah, but you know what is the problem? That those lands will come out on the battlefield TAPped, and you will not able to do absolutely nothing with this lands for a whole turn while I will just make you sacrifice 4 permanents for sure. That's what I was talking about the Titan being slow and perfectly answerable even with his land tutor in all the ways of this world.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-14 8:13 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Uriel wrote:
Tim Proctor
Quote:
You completely wasted the time of many people that were trying to address your issue in a civilized manner while you were uncivilized


I'm sorry? Are you really the one talking of "civilized manner" while you just insult me (clown, thief, cheater) in your last post while I never attack to the personal nobody? You must be kidding me.


Nope not kidding. You admitted to producing counterfeit cards which makes you a thief and a cheater according to the game rules, that is black and white. You are a clown, you're wasting the time of people that are actually trying to help you out. After a couple posts from you and your circular logic I stopped trying to help you and starting getting you to go back to your circus. When someone comes anywhere near me with the only purpose of causing disruption I act civilly by answering the question but when a clown persists I'll just stomp it out and call a clown a clown.


Quote:
Quote:
PT gets out the lands that allow things not to be countered solving the Erayo issue


But so what? Even the Reliquiary Knight solve the problem of tutoring lands with Erayo, is not this the point. The point is, that if you actually flip Erayo in the early turns (and so even before PT enter in the battlefield) it ruins the fun of game of everybody and I say that is preferable the Titan then this situation.


The lands that allow things to not be countered aren't forests of plains and the Knight can't get either or those, nor the hideaway lands, etc. Your point is null.

Quote:
Quote:
Hokori, Dust Drinker is victim to the massive amounts of anti-flying spells green has


Hokori doesn't fly so it don't get the point of this one. And the best thing green does are not actually the removals, actually compare to black and white, is one of the worsest color for removal.


If you're saying that Green can't ramp 2 mana by turn 4 then you're really out of touch with reality. Furthermore, Green has the best situation with the non-land mana producers and Seedborn Muse, or play extra lands, etc. for the drinker to come into play, at most you'd realistically delay the green player a turn.

Quote:
Quote:
has and bounce lands allow the PT to untap something for 2 and ensure a land play while the Hokori gets domed on the head for 6 a turn.


Oh, please not fantamagic now. Hokory is a pain in the ass in any normal situation, and even at the best cases it just slow, stop and lock everybody while is far more likely that the Hokory player will have cards like Unwinding Clock or Sword of Feast and Famine. Besides is more likely that Hokory will came to play even before the PT, screwing up even that.


See above but your points about multiplayer play and the ability of green to manipulate land and non-land mana is absurd.


Quote:
Quote:
But comparing it PT more than likely you turn 5 bribery my Ulamog, Turn 6 I PT getting Glacial Chasm or Ice Floe and Homeward Path so that I get my Ulamog back and beat the living crap out of you with it.


Yeah, but you know what is the problem? That those lands will come out on the battlefield TAPped, and you will not able to do absolutely nothing with this lands for a whole turn while I will just make you sacrifice 4 permanents for sure. That's what I was talking about the Titan being slow and perfectly answerable even with his land tutor in all the ways of this world.


You swing into Glacial Chasm meaning that your Eldrazi sits there until the Homeward Path untaps and gets the freaking Eldrazi back. No damage and you get some new lands a couple turns later, so again your point is null. You can also get the Kalhni Garden and stop 2 of that, but the point is that you get your Eldrazi back.

In face that makes all 20 of your points null.

That ability for the PT to get answers by tutoring for multiple lands is absurd and that is why is got banned. No other card compares to its ability to tutor for 2 lands repeatedly and swing for 6. I know you don't listen, but everyone is telling you the same thing.


Last edited by Tim Proctor on 2012-Dec-14 10:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-14 8:35 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
As the original author of this thread (some three months ago!) and given the status of the current argument, can I please ask a mod to

LOCK THAT SHIT DOWN

Thank you.

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-14 11:31 am 
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Ummmm, yeah, good idea. People still seem to be into talking about this, and they're still being (mostly) respectful. They sure are writing a lot of words, anyway. But, at this point it's getting pretty dang repetitive.

Maybe try again in a month or two, guys, after you've had time to think of some new points to make.


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