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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 8:04 pm 

Joined: 2011-Apr-28 6:37 pm
Age: Wyvern
I feel like we are getting off topic here. Ramp is obviously a viable and fair strategy. Let's not deny it or beat dead horses.

My opinion and observation is that Primeval Titan was the single card that enabled heavy ramp in strategies that really had no business ramping in such a green fashion, to the point that it overpowered decks decks that did just fine in the first place. All you had to do was splash green and add a couple of tutors and - just for kicks - good green spells (herp derp, eternal witness!), and suddenly your deck is probably better off than it was before.

Sol Ring enables some pretty decent ramp in every color, but it has none of the potential that Primeval Titan does. Sol Ring can't get you 6 lands - lands that could be anything from Emeria to Urborg/Coffers - and a sol ring can be destroyed. There is no undoing what a Primeval Titan does (Mass Land Destruction, LOL. Yea, that's a fantastic solution!).

That all goes without mentioning all of the games where a Primeval Titan is the first, second, third, and fourth creature tutored, cloned, reanimated and stolen.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 2:29 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
People should have just started playing more spot removal and plow under, or lavaball trap, or rain of salt.

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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 4:00 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
People should have just started playing more spot removal and plow under, or lavaball trap, or rain of salt.

Yeah, that's probably accurate. Primeval Titan got banned because no one in the world plays enough spot removal or other answers.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 5:35 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
People should have just started playing more spot removal and plow under, or lavaball trap, or rain of salt.

The damage is already done once you play him. Why? Because even if you Plow Under, I get those same two lands back on his next attack. Before, I was up three cards and you were down none, now you're down a card and I'm up two. Guess what? That's still a three card difference between us.

He's Card Advantage x Mana Acceleration rolled into one, and he's got no recurring cost except turning him sideways. That's why he's game warping; everyone wants him because he pushes you sooo far ahead. I see people compare him to CS, but the issue is that no matter how many cards you draw you still have to have the mana to play them. CS is more like Necro, while fueling your draw and allowing you to sculpt your hand you're still limited to the resources you have in play.
Sphinx is good, don't get me wrong, but PT is warping.

Edit: It's worth noting that I changed my opinion of him. I was initially against banning. On the surface it really does look like he's not the problem, as he only accelerates whatever strategy you are already playing. But the underlying issue is that once he drops the game degenerates into "Who controls PT" and he suffers the same fate as KoKo used to; no one wants to exile him because everyone starts salivating over the prospect of to (ab)using him.
Maybe in a few years the game will have advanced to the point that he can come off and something else will take his place, just like he did to KoKo.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 6:00 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Antis wrote:
Don't you see? The problem is not that Titan is a reusable RAMP, the problem is that he is a reusable TUTOR. Ramping is cool and all, but that can be done in other ways. For example, my Riku deck has a fair bit of ramp, but no Titan. Why? Because my build focuses on spells (only creatures aside from the general are Uyo and Djinn Illuminatus), so I play ramp I can Fork. And I play only basic lands, except Alchemist's Refuge.

But I DO play PT in my Child of Alara deck. Not so much to get MORE lands, or the right duals, but to TUTOR for specific functional nonbasic lands I need, according to the situation. Heck the first candidate for PT is usually Maze of Ith, which doesn't even produce mana! Others include saccing lands, Urborg/Coffers (it's my MEAN deck =), Strip Mine and Vesuva.
You are aware that Riku can clone creatures that are cast, correct? And that would be cool with PT, right? Just checking.

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My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 6:05 am 
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Joined: 2010-Aug-06 1:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: USA
MRHblue wrote:
You are aware that Riku can clone creatures that are cast, correct? And that would be cool with PT, right? Just checking.

Nope, Riku's ability is creatures ETB not when cast (Cast for Instants/Sorceries).

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A few of my EDH Generals:
~ Mayael the Anima - Mayael the 5-Power Stompy
~ Marath, Will of the Wild - An EDH Teacher deck (Tribal Beasts)
~ Rhys the Redeemed - Tokens... Why do they keep coming!?
~ Bosh, Iron Golem - Legend of the Iron Giants
~ Damia, Sage of Stone - All Creatures Great & Small


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 7:45 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
TheDoctor wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
You are aware that Riku can clone creatures that are cast, correct? And that would be cool with PT, right? Just checking.

Nope, Riku's ability is creatures ETB not when cast (Cast for Instants/Sorceries).

But... It still creates a copy, so you still get two PTs ETBing.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 9:15 am 

Joined: 2012-Sep-25 8:55 am
Age: Egg
Primetime's ban I wholeheartedly support.

Too many games I've played turn into "Grab and protect Primetime on my turn" after it hits the board, or just several turns of board wipes followed by reanimating titan. I think the most ridiculous hot-PT game I ever played went something like PT hits board, lightning greaves, swing at me, turn; next player wipes the board, reanimates PT, lightning greaves, swings at me, turn; my turn, play a land, play a blocker, turn; board wipe, reanimate PT, greaves, swing at me; repeat the board-wipe greaves playstyle until nobody had land left (I died by the fourth reanimate. Apparently people don't like it when you have strip mine and crucible on the board to try and control the PT shenannigans...) in their library, at which point it became whose fat spells could land uncountered for long enough to deal lethal damage.

I'm so glad I don't play in that group anymore...

Worldfire... I don't know why I didn't realize you could cast a general after it resolved. I guess I can see why my friends told me not to play it whereas obliterate was okay sometimes. Maybe if it had included the words "Empty all mana pools".

Kokopuff's unbanning will be an interesting thing to see in my current meta. Lots of control/combo players who prefer to have 1-2 serious win conditions and instead fill their decks with stupid "cool stuff" cards (I'm looking at you, soul blast and insurrection!)


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 10:25 am 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
I think we can all agree from these changes is that either Surging Chaos is very influential, or was just spot on the money for 12 straight months.

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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 9:50 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Feb-11 7:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I never had the pleasure of runing with or against, primetime or worldfide. However with kokopuffs off the list, I have bought one and plan to abuse it to hell and back. Im not gonna lie. The card has serious potential, and personally the "12 months and back on the list" is too lenient, I give it 6. I will be putting it in my zombie deck (with 20/30-some, recursion effects). My playgroup doesnt run nowhere near enough GYH to deal with my sedris deck and I plan to exploit that.

While I relish the fact its been removed, I do agree that it will bring back to light the reason it was on the list in the 1st place.

Im just waiting for the "I kicked a RoR on a Koko" stories to become abundant.

If koko got removed then Prime time should've stayed off the list. You have replaced one format-warping monster with another.

However whilest it maybe slightly "irrational" to the masses and has stirred up a fair amount of disgruntled posts, I will respect the decision.

but like I said 6 months

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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-25 11:10 pm 

Joined: 2011-Dec-05 6:29 am
Age: Wyvern
I played some games with at my local playgroup who all disagree with the ruling and feel that prime time was fine. First game was two headed giant which turned into chase the prime time and then one person on each side got a C sphinx out and drew their decks off each other with a race to see who could vomit their deck out onto the table. A fun and dyanmic game that was . I said that i wanted to run sundering titan in my jor kadeen deck if we were ignoring the ban list - "thats banned, its unfun, cards are banned for a reason" etc

A few more games just helped reinforce my opinion If you don't have a primeval you might as well not be playing - which is why i fully approve of the ban. (disclaimer - the meta i play in is evil)


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-26 7:20 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
TheDoctor wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
You are aware that Riku can clone creatures that are cast, correct? And that would be cool with PT, right? Just checking.

Nope, Riku's ability is creatures ETB not when cast (Cast for Instants/Sorceries).
You might want to look at the ETB rules again.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-26 7:25 am 
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Joined: 2010-Aug-06 1:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: USA
MRHblue wrote:
TheDoctor wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
You are aware that Riku can clone creatures that are cast, correct? And that would be cool with PT, right? Just checking.

Nope, Riku's ability is creatures ETB not when cast (Cast for Instants/Sorceries).
You might want to look at the ETB rules again.

You might want to read your own post again. You said cast, and I pointed out it was when PT would ETB not when you cast the creature spell. I didn't say it wouldn't work. There's a difference.

_________________
A few of my EDH Generals:
~ Mayael the Anima - Mayael the 5-Power Stompy
~ Marath, Will of the Wild - An EDH Teacher deck (Tribal Beasts)
~ Rhys the Redeemed - Tokens... Why do they keep coming!?
~ Bosh, Iron Golem - Legend of the Iron Giants
~ Damia, Sage of Stone - All Creatures Great & Small


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-07 12:42 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-04 3:38 pm
Age: Dragon
So this is the point. We got a lot of overpowered cards, actually very unfun and warping then the Titan that are EDH legal, and nobody scream a ban about it:

Turn 1: Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault: So, if the Titan is a problem why it ramp too fast in relation to the other players, why are allowed cards that from the very beginning of the game gives you permanently mana that makes you immediately 3 or 4 turns ahead? Now, very often in my group come up this situation, that is not even that difficult to reproduce: Turn 1, somebody cast a land, a sol ring and a mana crypt, then use this mana to cast a very nice Quicksilver Amulet. Turn two, the guy with the mana rocks, put from the quicksilver an Ulamog, a Kozilek, a Blighsteel Colossus or any other kind of random fatties. And you are telling me that a sixmana rampaging tapped land creatures is more degenerative then THIS situation? you need many pieces of cards for put the fatties so early in the game? Ok, so let's talk about a fatty that don't even need any kind of combo pieces to turn up fatty on turn one, the Serra Ascendant. But looks like that a 6/6 cool rampaging creature at six mana looks more unfair then a 6/6 flying creatures at ONE mana.

Turn 2: Yes, if u play a Luminarch Ascension in mulyiplayer from turn 2, u must to tell me how u can stop that player to produce in his next turn 4/4 flyers as crazy, by simply paying 2 mana for putting each one in the battlefield at istant speed? And at the same cost Erayo, Soratami Ascendant isn't really an annoying and unfun card really difficult to take care about in the very early game?


And those were the overpowered bombs which you can abuse very early in really every deck that share their colors (and the mana rocks don't even need a colored deck). Now if we want to talk to really overpowered bombs at the same cost of the Titan:

- Where is the sense of making legal in a format where you start at 40 life points a card that states that you win if u have 40 life points (Felidar Sovereign)? Isn't this card much more against all kind of philosophy of the format of Titan and still being legal?

- Where is the sense to start at 40 life points if exist, not one, but two cards (Sphinx Magister andf Sorin Markov), that decrease the life points of a player to 10 no matter how much life he got? Sorin is even very easy autoabusable, coz of his planeswalker nature, making redure to 10 even more the one opponent. And the Titan should be worse and unfun and game collapsing then those two?

- How I said in another thread, the Consecrated Sphinx is almost like a Griselbrand and I say all. But actually i would put the Necropotence as the legal EDH Yawgmoth's Bargain as well (like how mana crypt and the sol ring are the black lotus and moxes of the game : just no reason why not put them in every deck and accellerate you permanently like crazy).



It would be a pleasure to me if somebody can prove me how these cards are less warping, overpowered, unfair, unfun, board advantages of a Titan. Because I think that all of them that i mention are far more aggressive, nasty, competitive and warping, abusable or unfair then the Titan and still not will reasonable for them to have a serious ban. Thank you for the patience for reading my reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-07 1:52 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-16 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uriel wrote:
So this is the point. We got a lot of overpowered cards, actually very unfun and warping then the Titan that are EDH legal, and nobody scream a ban about it:

Turn 1: Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault: So, if the Titan is a problem why it ramp too fast in relation to the other players, why are allowed cards that from the very beginning of the game gives you permanently mana that makes you immediately 3 or 4 turns ahead? Now, very often in my group come up this situation, that is not even that difficult to reproduce: Turn 1, somebody cast a land, a sol ring and a mana crypt, then use this mana to cast a very nice Quicksilver Amulet. Turn two, the guy with the mana rocks, put from the quicksilver an Ulamog, a Kozilek, a Blighsteel Colossus or any other kind of random fatties. And you are telling me that a sixmana rampaging tapped land creatures is more degenerative then THIS situation? you need many pieces of cards for put the fatties so early in the game? Ok, so let's talk about a fatty that don't even need any kind of combo pieces to turn up fatty on turn one, the Serra Ascendant. But looks like that a 6/6 cool rampaging creature at six mana looks more unfair then a 6/6 flying creatures at ONE mana.

Turn 2: Yes, if u play a Luminarch Ascension in mulyiplayer from turn 2, u must to tell me how u can stop that player to produce in his next turn 4/4 flyers as crazy, by simply paying 2 mana for putting each one in the battlefield at istant speed? And at the same cost Erayo, Soratami Ascendant isn't really an annoying and unfun card really difficult to take care about in the very early game?


And those were the overpowered bombs which you can abuse very early in really every deck that share their colors (and the mana rocks don't even need a colored deck). Now if we want to talk to really overpowered bombs at the same cost of the Titan:

- Where is the sense of making legal in a format where you start at 40 life points a card that states that you win if u have 40 life points (Felidar Sovereign)? Isn't this card much more against all kind of philosophy of the format of Titan and still being legal?

- Where is the sense to start at 40 life points if exist, not one, but two cards (Sphinx Magister andf Sorin Markov), that decrease the life points of a player to 10 no matter how much life he got? Sorin is even very easy autoabusable, coz of his planeswalker nature, making redure to 10 even more the one opponent. And the Titan should be worse and unfun and game collapsing then those two?

- How I said in another thread, the Consecrated Sphinx is almost like a Griselbrand and I say all. But actually i would put the Necropotence as the legal EDH Yawgmoth's Bargain as well (like how mana crypt and the sol ring are the black lotus and moxes of the game : just no reason why not put them in every deck and accellerate you permanently like crazy).



It would be a pleasure to me if somebody can prove me how these cards are less warping, overpowered, unfair, unfun, board advantages of a Titan. Because I think that all of them that i mention are far more aggressive, nasty, competitive and warping, abusable or unfair then the Titan and still not will reasonable for them to have a serious ban. Thank you for the patience for reading my reasons.


TLDR, go back to Sally.

Okay I actually did read it and understand you're not from a primary English speaking nation, so if you don't understand any of the terms that I use let me know.

Response to point 1 "We got a lot of overpowered cards, actually very unfun and warping then the Titan that are EDH legal, and nobody scream a ban about it". There are lots of people screaming ban about every card out there, people were screaming to ban Carnival of Souls because it can only be used in a combo or circus themed deck and anything with clowns just wins cause those guys are scary. The point being is that people scream at just about every card that sees play.

Response to point 2 "if the Titan is a problem why it ramp too fast in relation to the other players, why are allowed cards that from the very beginning of the game gives you permanently mana that makes you immediately 3 or 4 turns ahead?". The Titan was banned because it warped the format, there were too many decks coagulating around this concept, it was becoming the 'end' not the means to an end, like Sol Ring and Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, etc. There is no other card that does what Prime Time does, search for a card that gets any land (not just basic) and puts them into play.

Response to point 3 "Turn 1, somebody cast a land, a sol ring and a mana crypt, then use this mana to cast a very nice Quicksilver Amulet. Turn two, the guy with the mana rocks, put from the quicksilver an Ulamog, a Kozilek, a Blighsteel Colossus or any other kind of random fatties. And you are telling me that a sixmana rampaging tapped land creatures is more degenerative then THIS situation?". Yes, you're looking at 4 cards versus 1 card. There are hundreds of 3 card infinite combos for instant wins that are more broken than the Blightsteel Colossus. I don't mind whatsoever when people on turn one drop a ton of manarocks and someone drops a Kataki, War's Wage or another hoser. Artifact ramp is a part of EDH which is about epic plays and getting those epic level creatures onto the battlefield and using them, while the Prime Time (which I actually consider an epic play and totally allowable, but I do back the RC on the decision) is something completely different.

Response to point 4 "if u play a Luminarch Ascension in mulyiplayer from turn 2, u must to tell me how u can stop that player to produce in his next turn 4/4 flyers as crazy, by simply paying 2 mana for putting each one in the battlefield at istant speed? And at the same cost Erayo, Soratami Ascendant isn't really an annoying and unfun card really difficult to take care about in the very early game?" Um, the Ascendant as a commander allows for the continued casting of him on turn 2 versus the chance of drawing the card. Furthermore, tokens are really freaking easy to get rid of and the card isn't abused.

Response to point 5 "Where is the sense of making legal in a format where you start at 40 life points a card that states that you win if u have 40 life points (Felidar Sovereign)? Isn't this card much more against all kind of philosophy of the format of Titan and still being legal?", okay I don't care anymore. You're talking about a creature that you can sometimes sneak in early but have to wait an entire turn and hope that no one shoots you for a couple points before the creature is utterly useless... did I say useless cause I mean it. You cannot turbo fog a 4 player game, when you know everyone will be gunning for you, just can't do it. The goat just doesn't work.

Response to point 6 "Where is the sense to start at 40 life points if exist, not one, but two cards (Sphinx Magister andf Sorin Markov), that decrease the life points of a player to 10 no matter how much life he got? Sorin is even very easy autoabusable, coz of his planeswalker nature, making redure to 10 even more the one opponent. And the Titan should be worse and unfun and game collapsing then those two?". Ten life isn't dead, in fact you're still very alive (like 100% alive). Maybe you have an infinite life combo and someone used it to get you back to mortal realms, but you're talking about some harder to cast cards. But it doesn't really matter, neither of those cards are being abused to the point that a significant majority of the players are building effects around them.

Response to point 7 " How I said in another thread, the Consecrated Sphinx is almost like a Griselbrand and I say all. But actually i would put the Necropotence as the legal EDH Yawgmoth's Bargain as well (like how mana crypt and the sol ring are the black lotus and moxes of the game : just no reason why not put them in every deck and accellerate you permanently like crazy).". Yeah there are EDH legal versions that aren't as powerful as some other cards, Necropotenceisn't as powerful as Recurring Nightmare, but was there a point?

Response to point 8 "It would be a pleasure to me if somebody can prove me how these cards are less warping, overpowered, unfair, unfun, board advantages of a Titan. Because I think that all of them that i mention are far more aggressive, nasty, competitive and warping, abusable or unfair then the Titan and still not will reasonable for them to have a serious ban. Thank you for the patience for reading my reasons.". Far be it to me that after a few drinks I am not obliged to pleasure someone. I'm not 100% sure what you're saying but I'm guessing that you're saying that every card you mentioned is just way more bannable than PT, and there you are clearly wrong. Felidar Sovereign is clearly the low man on the totem pole here and way less powered than PT, so you are pleasured. You're welcome.


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