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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 11:13 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Aggro_zombies wrote:
This doesn't make sense to me. "Hard counters to ramp decks exist but we don't want to play them, but we will complain about the stifling effect ramp decks have on the metagame." Okay...? Ramp is just hands-down the best strategy in the absence of mana denial or combo because you can just out-bomb people every time.


The problem is splash damage.

MLD is a good idea in an environment where ramp is getting out of hand. However, your blowing up the world may slow down Mr. Ramp, but it's also taken Timmy, who was playing a perfectly normal game dropping one land a turn, out to the woodshed. This is why MLD is soft-banned - people playing fair get punished for doing the very things they're supposed to be doing in Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 5:09 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
Aggro_zombies wrote:
This doesn't make sense to me. "Hard counters to ramp decks exist but we don't want to play them, but we will complain about the stifling effect ramp decks have on the metagame." Okay...? Ramp is just hands-down the best strategy in the absence of mana denial or combo because you can just out-bomb people every time.


The problem is splash damage.

MLD is a good idea in an environment where ramp is getting out of hand. However, your blowing up the world may slow down Mr. Ramp, but it's also taken Timmy, who was playing a perfectly normal game dropping one land a turn, out to the woodshed. This is why MLD is soft-banned - people playing fair get punished for doing the very things they're supposed to be doing in Commander.

But Timmy was getting punished anyway by virtue of being behind Mr. Ramp. He's at a disadvantage precisely because he was playing fairly.

I mean, I "get" that games feel less frustrating when you lose because you fell behind the ramp player than when you lose because you had no lands. But I think having MLD running around is worth it if it forces diversification in the meta. Timmy in this scenario is going to lose a lot anyway because he's bringing a pistol to a cannon fight; at least he can play around MLD, whereas falling behind the ramp player isn't really something he can control without playing ramp himself. If he's okay with that, then more power to him. I just got tired of grinding fun, interesting decks against the same Ramp_and_Bombs.deck ad nauseam, so I started playing combo and MLD more often. If I'm not having fun against Mr. Ramp, I don't see why I shouldn't spread the love with a little Armageddon.

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kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 5:51 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Aggro_zombies wrote:
But Timmy was getting punished anyway by virtue of being behind Mr. Ramp. He's at a disadvantage precisely because he was playing fairly.


I'm not saying you're wrong; heck, in your situation, it may be entirely correct until Mr Ramp gets the message. I'm just explaining why it's not as simple as "run MLD". You have to be careful.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 6:15 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
Aggro_zombies wrote:
But Timmy was getting punished anyway by virtue of being behind Mr. Ramp. He's at a disadvantage precisely because he was playing fairly.


I'm not saying you're wrong; heck, in your situation, it may be entirely correct until Mr Ramp gets the message. I'm just explaining why it's not as simple as "run MLD". You have to be careful.

I've seen enough fighting over LD in general to know that most players are happy to play with and against ramp decks, so it's mostly not going to be an issue for many groups. I suspect I am in the minority for finding ramp decks intolerably boring.

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kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 8:54 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Aggro_zombies wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
Aggro_zombies wrote:
But Timmy was getting punished anyway by virtue of being behind Mr. Ramp. He's at a disadvantage precisely because he was playing fairly.


I'm not saying you're wrong; heck, in your situation, it may be entirely correct until Mr Ramp gets the message. I'm just explaining why it's not as simple as "run MLD". You have to be careful.

I've seen enough fighting over LD in general to know that most players are happy to play with and against ramp decks, so it's mostly not going to be an issue for many groups. I suspect I am in the minority for finding ramp decks intolerably boring.

Aggro, you're right that Timmy is going to lose more often against ramp decks and MLD may actually give him an advantage. The issue here is psychology. I believe MaRo talked about it at some point. If a player loses two games, one in which he was simply out-classed, and one in which everything he did got countered, he's going to dislike the latter more because he felt like he didn't play. (I'm pretty sure I got MaRo's example somewhat accurate). The same applies to MLD. It turns the game into draw-go, and many players dislike that, especially in EDH where they load their deck with splashy bombs that have just become dead draws.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-21 9:49 pm 

Joined: 2012-Sep-21 8:48 pm
Age: Egg
Joz wrote:
Should have banned Consectrated Sphinx instead of Prime Time....

Don't care about Worldfire...

Now I need to get a copy (3) of Koko...

But Prime Time made four of my decks competitive enough to play in my group...he's gone now, and im going to have to put in douche cards just to keep up...Whorinclex, Iona, etc..

I'd happily see consecrated sphinx gone (and lets be honest, sol ring). That is a card that warps the board state far more heavily than prime. A man untapping with prime is ahead (do your metas not have a suite of stripmine effects in the competitive decks?), a man untapping with sphinx has won although the board doesnt show it (a lot like jace in other formats).

Thinking about it what banning prime has really done for a lot of the decks ive seen and play is slow down the already obscenely slow control decks. eg my damia deck with about 3 actual win cons will need to keep the consecrated sphinx forbid lock (deadeye nav mystic snake etc) around a lot longer before they actually die.

My shop has a 20 infect rule because people didnt like being one shot by colossus. But what people fail to realize is that the colossus is only the instrument. What they are really losing to is the lightning greaves, the fist full of counterspells, and the 20 mana to power it all. The colossus deck is simply a tier above what the meta would accept but the colossus deck isnt actually punished by the 20 infect rule: only one card needs to be changed and the stomp continues. I've never been afraid or annoyed by someones titan, there are plenty of ways to abuse theirs or keep pace, and its rarely game altering. The lands arent going to kill you and the spells they ramp into arent either unless you're already severely behind by every margin.

If you cannot interact with an urborg coffers (and this isnt usually the best combination of lands to tutor for) then I would suggest upgrading your deck to your peers level or creating house rules on power restrictions. The alternative is simply coming to the table with a knowledge of the power level of your opponents deck. This can reduce the frustration involved because this lets you pick a suitable deck. Self regulation on power is very key. Edh is really multiple formats made up of different tiers of power level: from the hyper competitive edric deck to jank goblin tribal (i enjoy both). The person playing the edric deck will not blink an eye at a prime titan but the goblin player may feel cheated. Insisting that a card like primeval titan is bad for every tier cannot be correct and that is what the banlist does. I've yet to find a house ruling allowing a player to use cards on the banlist regardless of how cut throat the meta.

Banning the tool just means that the decks built to be competitive will adapt and they will continue destroying opponents who did not come prepared. Colossus and prime titan are not killing you, they are simply the most visible.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 12:17 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
Aggro_zombies wrote:
This doesn't make sense to me. "Hard counters to ramp decks exist but we don't want to play them, but we will complain about the stifling effect ramp decks have on the metagame." Okay...? Ramp is just hands-down the best strategy in the absence of mana denial or combo because you can just out-bomb people every time.


The problem is splash damage.

MLD is a good idea in an environment where ramp is getting out of hand. However, your blowing up the world may slow down Mr. Ramp, but it's also taken Timmy, who was playing a perfectly normal game dropping one land a turn, out to the woodshed. This is why MLD is soft-banned - people playing fair get punished for doing the very things they're supposed to be doing in Commander.

Not saying you're wrong, but Aggro_zombies was referring to a list of commanders that Master Baiter made, all of which were either Voltron, combo, or lockdown. What he was saying had little to do with MLD.

On the topic of MLD, why do we think MLD is so powerful to beat ramp decks? Helldozer, Dwarven Miner, Goblin Settler (and all of it's less expensive friends), Detrivore, Woodfall Primus, Numot, Orcish Settlers, Rumbling Cresendo, Dues of Calamity, and Plow Under are all real cards, and I've seen all of them played successfully. I don't think MLD or other "equalizers" are needed, large-scale targetted LD is the answer. And of course, a good number of the LD you use has to have a body or some other side effect, but I still don't see what's wrong with the strategy.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 5:52 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
Aggro, you're right that Timmy is going to lose more often against ramp decks and MLD may actually give him an advantage. The issue here is psychology. I believe MaRo talked about it at some point. If a player loses two games, one in which he was simply out-classed, and one in which everything he did got countered, he's going to dislike the latter more because he felt like he didn't play. (I'm pretty sure I got MaRo's example somewhat accurate). The same applies to MLD. It turns the game into draw-go, and many players dislike that, especially in EDH where they load their deck with splashy bombs that have just become dead draws.

I'm not actually convinced people have all that much more fun when nothing they play matters (because they're too far behind) versus not being able to play anything (mana denial). It's part of the reason why pretty much everything in my local group is moving to ramp, either heavily mana-rocked or G/x.

The problem I have with ramp decks is that they commit the cardinal sin of any fun thing: they're boring. The coolest, splashiest play 90% of these decks can muster is going to be some variation on "Look how far over the top I can go!" or "Look at this amazing topdeck!", both of which are cool and fun the first few times you see them, but not so much the fifteenth or sixteenth. Even within the same game, the constant cycle of untap, cast bomb, swing, go gets monotonous really, really quickly. But if you show up to a table full of ramp decks without one - or without mana denial or combo - you'll fall too far behind too quickly and be dogpiled by bombs you can't answer. It's just not a very interesting dynamic, and can be really annoying for people.

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kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 6:02 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
On I agree completely that ramp creates boring games. I know for me, at least, holding a Storm Herd or Rite in my hand and being one shy to cast it is thrilling and I almost bounce out of my seat waiting for that next land. I was just stating wha I recalled hearing from R&D.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 9:47 am 
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Joined: 2011-Nov-16 1:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Prague, Heart of Europe
I'm kind of puzzled to see everyone talking about "ramp" when discussing the PT ban.

Don't you see? The problem is not that Titan is a reusable RAMP, the problem is that he is a reusable TUTOR. Ramping is cool and all, but that can be done in other ways. For example, my Riku deck has a fair bit of ramp, but no Titan. Why? Because my build focuses on spells (only creatures aside from the general are Uyo and Djinn Illuminatus), so I play ramp I can Fork. And I play only basic lands, except Alchemist's Refuge.

But I DO play PT in my Child of Alara deck. Not so much to get MORE lands, or the right duals, but to TUTOR for specific functional nonbasic lands I need, according to the situation. Heck the first candidate for PT is usually Maze of Ith, which doesn't even produce mana! Others include saccing lands, Urborg/Coffers (it's my MEAN deck =), Strip Mine and Vesuva.

Lands can do some really mean stuff nowadays, folks. I've seen people compare Prime with cards like Runescarred Demon and Sphinx of Uthuun. Just...NO. Those don't even come close to the power level of the Titan, sorry. He had to go, I'm afraid.

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I could be wrong. I'm just not in the mood.
tempesteye wrote:
In my early teens I was a Timmy.
In my late teens I was a Spike.
In my 20's I was a Johnny.
Now, I just like to play.
'Active decks' list here.
Currently hiring servants for my palace, made from my own walls of text.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-22 2:53 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Aggro_zombies wrote:
I'm not actually convinced people have all that much more fun when nothing they play matters (because they're too far behind) versus not being able to play anything (mana denial). It's part of the reason why pretty much everything in my local group is moving to ramp, either heavily mana-rocked or G/x.


As long as you can play spells, they pretty much *always* matter.
If one player is ahead of the other 3 or 4, they can team up and pull him back down. If he's far enough ahead that he can win a game of defacto archenemy, either his deck is on a whole other power level then the rest (and he shouldn't be playing it in that group), or he got a one in a hundred god draw, and well, that can happen with any deck.
If two or three players are ahead of the rest of the pack, the other usually have a chance to catch up while the lead players beat the tar out of each other.
That's just how multiplayer works.

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Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 7:23 am 

Joined: 2011-Jul-15 6:33 pm
Age: Drake
My reaction to hearing Prime Time was banned:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHoNWwhzh3M

You guys are banning all my favorite titans. I think you're discriminatory against extremely-height-unchallenged-individuals. :(

In all seriousness, I understand but I disagree.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-23 9:12 am 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-23 10:03 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: The Netherlands - Hoorn
Magnetic North wrote:
My reaction to hearing Prime Time was banned:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHoNWwhzh3M


That is some funny shit! :D


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 9:50 am 

Joined: 2012-Jan-09 9:37 am
Age: Wyvern
Antis wrote:
I'm kind of puzzled to see everyone talking about "ramp" when discussing the PT ban.

Don't you see? The problem is not that Titan is a reusable RAMP, the problem is that he is a reusable TUTOR. Ramping is cool and all, but that can be done in other ways. For example, my Riku deck has a fair bit of ramp, but no Titan. Why? Because my build focuses on spells (only creatures aside from the general are Uyo and Djinn Illuminatus), so I play ramp I can Fork. And I play only basic lands, except Alchemist's Refuge.

But I DO play PT in my Child of Alara deck. Not so much to get MORE lands, or the right duals, but to TUTOR for specific functional nonbasic lands I need, according to the situation. Heck the first candidate for PT is usually Maze of Ith, which doesn't even produce mana! Others include saccing lands, Urborg/Coffers (it's my MEAN deck =), Strip Mine and Vesuva.

Lands can do some really mean stuff nowadays, folks. I've seen people compare Prime with cards like Runescarred Demon and Sphinx of Uthuun. Just...NO. Those don't even come close to the power level of the Titan, sorry. He had to go, I'm afraid.


I absolutely agree with Antis. Lands are the most annoying and difficult to handle permanents, especially when Life from the Loam or Crucible are also in the deck. And there are nonbasic lands to do literally freaking everything nowadays. That PT can get two at a time before anyone can do anything about it, and can then get loads more if left unckecked is just bonkers.


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 Post subject: Re: September Ban List Discussion
AgePosted: 2012-Sep-24 3:33 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
If PT only triggered on being cast; no issue.
If PT only got one land per trigger; no issue.
If PT only got basics; no issue.
If PT only got two non-basics when he did combat damage; no issue.
If he only put them into your hand instead of otB; no issue.
If you had to pay mana to tutor the lands; no issue.

But he does all of the above and even more. He is extremely overpowered.
It would be like if Inferno Titan did six damage per trigger, or if Frost drew you two cards. Honestly, that's equivalent to PT's power level.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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