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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 12:06 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-09 10:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Belo Horizonte, Brazil
brainface wrote:
I think you should be glad that guy is playing bruna and not a commander that is actually good. God forbid that guy try uril or skittles. Or give that dude griselbrand the general and you'll find out why he was banned. ^_^

Seriously?

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Teeka's Dragon + Grafted Exoskeleton + Magebane Armor + Lure is my personal favorite combo.
Current decks: Child of Alara Tribal Enchantment Deck
Soon to be: Mishra's Double Donger Artifact Steal Deck


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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 12:11 pm 

Joined: 2011-Apr-15 12:02 pm
Age: Drake
Temennigru wrote:
Seriously?

Yes! There's a ton of more annoying generals / strategies the dude could be using.

Temennigru wrote:
I'm telling you. There's no way to beat his deck. He has all the standard mana ramps for commander (signets, gilded lotus, mana vault, etc.) and LOTS AND LOTS of spell counters. He counters everything, then casts bruna, attacks and wins the game.

See, that's not bruna. That's the color blue. And adding white to blue just makes it more annoying.

Cheap artifact hate/uncounterable stuff, and probably graveyard hate would all help you out there.

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Child of Alara: Sideboard, the deck
Heartless Hidetsugu: Does what every other Heartless deck does.
Karador, Ghost Chieftain: Rebel Elf Ball
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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 12:15 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-09 10:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Belo Horizonte, Brazil
brainface wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
Seriously?

Yes! There's a ton of more annoying generals / strategies the dude could be using.

Temennigru wrote:
I'm telling you. There's no way to beat his deck. He has all the standard mana ramps for commander (signets, gilded lotus, mana vault, etc.) and LOTS AND LOTS of spell counters. He counters everything, then casts bruna, attacks and wins the game.

See, that's not bruna. That's the color blue. And adding white to blue just makes it more annoying.

Cheap artifact hate/uncounterable stuff, and probably graveyard hate would all help you out there.

No it's not. It's blue with a guaranteed endgame card as a commander. I don't have a problem with blue control decks. I have a problem with endgame cards. And griselbrand is not one of them.

_________________
Teeka's Dragon + Grafted Exoskeleton + Magebane Armor + Lure is my personal favorite combo.
Current decks: Child of Alara Tribal Enchantment Deck
Soon to be: Mishra's Double Donger Artifact Steal Deck


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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 12:17 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Temennigru wrote:
brainface wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
Seriously?

Yes! There's a ton of more annoying generals / strategies the dude could be using.

Temennigru wrote:
I'm telling you. There's no way to beat his deck. He has all the standard mana ramps for commander (signets, gilded lotus, mana vault, etc.) and LOTS AND LOTS of spell counters. He counters everything, then casts bruna, attacks and wins the game.

See, that's not bruna. That's the color blue. And adding white to blue just makes it more annoying.

Cheap artifact hate/uncounterable stuff, and probably graveyard hate would all help you out there.

No it's not. It's blue with a guaranteed endgame card as a commander. I don't have a problem with blue control decks. I have a problem with endgame cards. And griselbrand is not one of them.

um...

Griselbranned, IS the endgame plan for many decks that used him. He was the plan.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 12:21 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-09 10:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Belo Horizonte, Brazil
Joz wrote:
um...

Griselbranned, IS the endgame plan for many decks that used him. He was the plan.

No. Other cards were the plan. He was the way to get to them. You don't win the game with griselbrand just for putting him on the battlefield. With bruna you do.

_________________
Teeka's Dragon + Grafted Exoskeleton + Magebane Armor + Lure is my personal favorite combo.
Current decks: Child of Alara Tribal Enchantment Deck
Soon to be: Mishra's Double Donger Artifact Steal Deck


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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 12:35 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
We understand you think Bruna is worse, but the general thought is she is not. We are rying to help you, but saying you wont put Bruna specific tech in you deck is silly.

Run graveyard hate. The player cannot literally counter everything, he just sounds smart on what to play. meddling mage or Sadistic Sacrament. There are lots of good answers, use the help.

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niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 12:45 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-09 10:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Belo Horizonte, Brazil
MRHblue wrote:
We understand you think Bruna is worse, but the general thought is she is not. We are rying to help you, but saying you wont put Bruna specific tech in you deck is silly.

Run graveyard hate. The player cannot literally counter everything, he just sounds smart on what to play. meddling mage or Sadistic Sacrament. There are lots of good answers, use the help.

So that's it? Bruna isn't broken because there are cards that work against her? Well then griselbrand is also not broken because you can just put omen machine in your deck.

_________________
Teeka's Dragon + Grafted Exoskeleton + Magebane Armor + Lure is my personal favorite combo.
Current decks: Child of Alara Tribal Enchantment Deck
Soon to be: Mishra's Double Donger Artifact Steal Deck


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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 1:30 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Temennigru wrote:
No. Other cards were the plan. He was the way to get to them. You don't win the game with griselbrand just for putting him on the battlefield. With bruna you do.


You need to play a degenerate Zur, Uril, Sharuum or other top tier generals before saying Bruna is broken. She certainly has the potential to be a powerful general but by no means is she ban worthy. There's no way for her to win reliably on turn 1-3.

With the way you're explaining it, the guy needs at least 9 mana as well as greaves or boots in play before he can casts his general and still be able to protect her. if an entire table can't kill a single guy before they get to 9+ mana, with boots out, counter support in hand and sufficient auras to make it lethal it's not the Bruna deck being too strong, it's the rest of the table being too weak.

I play a fairly powerful Hakim, Loreweaver deck that is basically the same in concept as Bruna in that it goes for general damage kills off a loaded graveyard/hand although I only have two counters in the deck rather than half the deck. It takes a LOT to get into a winning board position. If there are no auras in hand or yard when Bruna swings, that's a blockable 5/5. Hardly scary. Getting above 21 with auras is not always easy and a lot of the auras in blue are utility which doesn't increase the power. It is very easily interrupted by countering the general or hand/graveyard disruption. Obviously the deck isn't 50% auras and 50% counters since you'd need a way to draw/mill to make sure you have enough auras and counters when she swings, haste enablers, you suggested at least four ramp spells, etc...

Griselbrand on the other hand WAS capable of turn 0-3 wins reliably. Getting him into play was extremely easy and if the deck was built correctly, as soon as he hit the field the controller would just go off and win through combo or storm counts. Just because they killed you with a Tendrils of Agony, Psychosis Crawler, or Exsanguinate doesn't mean that it wasn't Griselbrand that caused them to win. Any of those cards are useless without support. Even if he didn't win instantly, everyone wanted to steal him so they could draw because draw is godly and he was a huge body to boot.

You should really be reconsidering the cards in your decks every time someone in your meta does. Magic is an evolving game and especially in an eternal format like EDH where new cards have funny interactions with old cards, you need to adapt to new cards and strategies. An optimal deck for one meta isn't going to be an identical list to another meta. If mass counter control is a "guaranteed win", you need to adapt. Split second, morph, uncounterable, non-interaction on other player's turns type cards are all very powerful vs control decks and being able to throw a wrench in someone else's strategy is just as important as advancing your own.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 1:47 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-09 10:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Belo Horizonte, Brazil
Epsilon wrote:
She certainly has the potential to be a powerful general but by no means is she ban worthy. There's no way for her to win reliably on turn 1-3.

That is also true for griselbrand.
I'm not saying she's broken. I'm saying she's more powerful than griselbrand.

_________________
Teeka's Dragon + Grafted Exoskeleton + Magebane Armor + Lure is my personal favorite combo.
Current decks: Child of Alara Tribal Enchantment Deck
Soon to be: Mishra's Double Donger Artifact Steal Deck


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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 2:08 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Temennigru wrote:
There's no way to beat his deck

I've played aganst basically that exact deck.
Bruna, Auras, Counters. And he had all tricks too. Mana Crypt, Mana Drain, Force of Will, etc.
I think I've seen it win *once*. Contrary to what you may believe, such a deck has *NO* way to actually counter every relevant spell that it's three opponents are casting. It doesn't have anywhere near enough cards, unless all three players are playing terrible decks that don't have enough relevant cards.

If you think Bruna is bad, you've likely never played against a tuned Azami deck... Which can sometimes *literally* counter *everything* relevant anyone plays the entire game.
Mono blue will stomp all over Bruna every time, since it'll win every counter war, meaning Bruna will *never* resolve. It's literally impossible for the Bruna player to have more answers, since around half their deck has to be devoted to cards to do nothing without Bruna.

As for Grielbrand, in the hands of a remotely competent player, you win 95%+ of the games in which GB comes out. That's no even close to being the case for Bruna.

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Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 2:09 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Temennigru wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
She certainly has the potential to be a powerful general but by no means is she ban worthy. There's no way for her to win reliably on turn 1-3.

That is also true for griselbrand.
I'm not saying she's broken. I'm saying she's more powerful than griselbrand.




I think you are dead wrong.

Griselbrand was consistent turn 1-3
And no other creature in magic history; other then perhaps Emrakul, Metalworker and Roffelos have the potential to be even close to how broken Griselbanned is.

I honestly can't tell if you are trolling, but I'm just going to assume you are.

SHE, is not as powerfull as Griselbrand. Not even close by a thousand, quadrillion, light eons.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 2:18 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Temennigru wrote:
So that's it? Bruna isn't broken because there are cards that work against her? Well then griselbrand is also not broken because you can just put omen machine in your deck.

Of course not, I am not trying to convince you one way or the other. You think she is more degenerate, I (and most others) do not. I am trying to provide answers. If you want to debate GB vs Bruna, the other posters have said it already.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 2:41 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-09 10:38 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Belo Horizonte, Brazil
Joz wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
I think you are dead wrong.

Griselbrand was consistent turn 1-3
And no other creature in magic history; other then perhaps Emrakul, Metalworker and Roffelos have the potential to be even close to how broken Griselbanned is.

I honestly can't tell if you are trolling, but I'm just going to assume you are.

SHE, is not as powerfull as Griselbrand. Not even close by a thousand, quadrillion, light eons.

You are seriously comparing griselbrand to emrakul?
Emrakul has protection from colored spells, flying, can't be countered, anihalator 6 and when you cast it YOU PLAY AN EXTRA TURN.
Emrakul is more broken than ANY magic card. We call it Emrakul of the i win lolz.
Griselbrand is insanely powerful but i wouldnt call him broken. There are WAY more broken cards that aren't banned in commander.
Also, if you check rofellos was only banned as a commander, as they shouldve done with griselbrand.

_________________
Teeka's Dragon + Grafted Exoskeleton + Magebane Armor + Lure is my personal favorite combo.
Current decks: Child of Alara Tribal Enchantment Deck
Soon to be: Mishra's Double Donger Artifact Steal Deck


Last edited by Temennigru on 2012-Jul-06 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 2:55 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Temennigru wrote:
You are seriously comparing griselbrand to emrakul?
Emrakul has protection from colored spells, flying, can't be countered, anihalator 6 and when you cast it YOU PLAY AN EXTRA TURN.
Emrakul is more broken than ANY magic card. We call it Emrakul of the i win lolz.
Griselbrand is insanely powerful but i wouldnt call him broken. There are WAY more broken cards that aren't banned in commander.


Name one that is legendary and a creature.


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 Post subject: Re: Why was griselbrand banned?
AgePosted: 2012-Jul-06 3:48 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Epsilon wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
You are seriously comparing griselbrand to emrakul?
Emrakul has protection from colored spells, flying, can't be countered, anihalator 6 and when you cast it YOU PLAY AN EXTRA TURN.
Emrakul is more broken than ANY magic card. We call it Emrakul of the i win lolz.
Griselbrand is insanely powerful but i wouldnt call him broken. There are WAY more broken cards that aren't banned in commander.


Name one that is legendary and a creature.

Norin the Wary. That guy is unkillable.


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