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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-14 10:35 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jul-10 2:52 pm
Age: Drake
the big difference with this guy and hermit druid/jin-gitaxis, is that in the 'worst case' (in that you DID get him into play, but something happened after that point, obviously not getting him into play is the 'worst' but that justification is useless when talking about if a card is too good, as he will be getting into play and ruining games some significant portion of the time) where he gets killed you STILL get to refill your hand, or draw even more if you want, whereas with gitaxis and druid you are down whatever cards you used to get them, and have nothing to show.

So while in theory his best case scenario isn't that much better than gitaxis or druid, his worst case scenario is infinitely better (at his worst he is necrologia for increments of 7).

"oh you stopped me from winning on the spot, i guess ill 'settle' for just restocking my hand and having you use up a card killing him"

spot removal on him is still a pretty bad place to be, stealing him is better, but just because MULTIPLE people got to break him doesn't mean he is fair...


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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 8:37 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
I guess I should mention what deck I'm running him in.

I'm playing Sharuum with the combo kills being...


It also runs Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience, but that doesn't kill everyone so it is probably coming out.
And the tutors that I'm running are...


Once you draw that 28 card chunk with Griselbrand (even if you miss the 29-42nd cards from him) it's hard to not just straight up win on your next turn.
What I'm seeing is people think that he needs to stick to be good. Not really.
That's what he has over Jin-Gitaxias, he just needs to be in play long enough for you to pass your turn and draw on your opponent's upkeep.

Firloz there above me understands what I'm getting at.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 12:31 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
So your totally broken deck is going to be marginally more broken?

This seems like something your opponents should be able to answer with force of will and I would answer by never playing against you again. Seems like everyone's still happy.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 12:34 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
yawg07 wrote:
I guess I should mention what deck I'm running him in.

I'm playing Sharuum with the combo kills being...


It also runs Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience, but that doesn't kill everyone so it is probably coming out.
And the tutors that I'm running are...


Once you draw that 28 card chunk with Griselbrand (even if you miss the 29-42nd cards from him) it's hard to not just straight up win on your next turn.
What I'm seeing is people think that he needs to stick to be good. Not really.
That's what he has over Jin-Gitaxias, he just needs to be in play long enough for you to pass your turn and draw on your opponent's upkeep.

Firloz there above me understands what I'm getting at.

Of course a dedicated combo deck which can get him out on turn 2 or 3 is going to love him.

The thing is, if you are running the kind of deck that you are, and are in a meta as competitive as yours, it's an issue. But for everyone else, not so much.

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That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 1:22 pm 
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tempesteye wrote:
Of course a dedicated combo deck which can get him out on turn 2 or 3 is going to love him.

The thing is, if you are running the kind of deck that you are, and are in a meta as competitive as yours, it's an issue. But for everyone else, not so much.


Even in a more casual playgroup, I still could see this having an Emrakul-like effect, where it just lets that person win right there. I will still reserve final judgement for seeing it in action, but I think it's only smart to keep a watchful eye on him.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 1:23 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
One of my groups has done some testing as well. We're not nearly as hardcore as Yawg's group sounds; Not a single deck here plays more then 10 or so tutors. (And even that is outside the norm)

We've acually tested Bargain in the past as well, since we like to give cards the benefit of the doubt. Yeah, it was broken, and that didn't last long. Grieslbarnd is MORE busted then bargain, by quite a bit. He's quite nearly as bad as hermit druid in "those" decks. People comparing him to stuff like Palincron really don't get it. He's not a combo card in combo decks, he IS THE COMBO, by himself. Again, like hermit druid. But unlike druid, you can play him in most any existing combo deck with a few minor modifications.

More importantly, he's NOT just stupid in the decks running combo. He's makes basically any game he show up in 100% about him. Out of 14 games he showed up in (excluding the combo deck games, where his controller won EVERY TIME), his controller won 13 of them. Yes, the game started being "Race to Grieselbrand", instead of Magic: The Gathering.
All of this is in a week or so or testing... The likelihood of decks shifting to abuse him more, and to win the "Race to Griedlbrand" is even more nauseating.

Basically, he's Hermit Druid 2.0 to the total spikes (which they DO NOT need), and Emurkual 2.0 to everyone else. (Which we DO NO NEED)

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 1:24 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jul-13 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Monmouth, OR
To those that think Griselbrand wouldn't be a problem, what makes it different from Yawgmoth's Bargain?

Because to me, the cards are way too similar in function and power level. Either both cards need to be banned or Bargain needs to come off.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 3:18 pm 
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Surging Chaos wrote:
To those that think Griselbrand wouldn't be a problem, what makes it different from Yawgmoth's Bargain?

Because to me, the cards are way too similar in function and power level. Either both cards need to be banned or Bargain needs to come off.

As I said before (and don't get me wrong, I do think Griselbrand needs to be potentially watched), the main difference I see between it, and Yawgmoth's Bargain, really is the draw 7 over the draw 1.

Both cards, in decks that can abuse it (as in go all in and win) will and can do it equally with either card. The deck is setup in a manner whereby the cards are not draw engines, but rather 6 mana or 8 mana multi tutors. It barely matters what else is in your list other then the foundation being to play or tutor for these cards asap and win. In that sense, the cards are virtually identical with one being easier to cheat into play early, and the other having marginally less answers to it. I'd say Griselbrand wins in this sense, but I also don't have much sympathy for the cutthroat meta that these sort of lists belong in.

In any deck that doesn't dig and win, I'm (personally) x10 more likely to include Bargain in my list then I am Griselbrand. Why? Because with Bargain I get a card that is harder to deal with, harder to steal and can provide me a continual and controlled source of CA when I need it. Griselbrand is basically CA overload and unlike say Consecrated Sphinx the CA comes at a cost worth considering.

The underlying point I suppose I am trying to make is that I could see myself including Bargain innocently in a lot more lists then I could Griselbrand, with the intent to not to abuse either card. In this direct sense, I consider Bargain worse because it exasperates the chance of other people including the card 'innocently' but then abusing it mercilessly (e.g. ala other banned cards that look innocent on paper, but aren't).

The counterpoint that I do agree with is Griselbrand has the potential to be way more game centralizing then Bargain, because it is a creature. Counterpoint to this however is the same argument you could provide for not banning Consecrated Sphinx or Primeval Titan, namely that the cards are only as broken as the rest of your list (or your friends list) and your ability to just man up and 'exile' the bloody thing on sight.

Now if it turns out both cards (Bargain & Grisel) are as bad as each other, then I still don't think both need to be banned. The banned list is a representational banned list, and not a comprehensive banned list and therefore it would be a question of which one should be banned (but not both). Provided people understand the nature of this concept, they should understand that if you shouldn't play one, you shouldn't play the other as well. I do understand that thinking of the banned list this way is not as intuitive and sometimes harder then it needs to be, but as I've said many times, it's IMO a necessary evil (otherwise the banned list would be significantly larger). Emrakul is not IMO a good comparison to Griselbrand at all in this sense, because Emrakul is pretty unique and doesn't already have a card on the banned list similar in nature (Kokusho possibly being the closest but still not quite the same IMO). trevor proved this somewhat wrong

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Last edited by GoodbyeWorld on 2012-Apr-15 9:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 4:14 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-15 9:31 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
People always say the banned list is a representation. Yet all 5 moxes are banned. Why? Because people would definitely play the other 4 if 1 were banned. The same will be true of YB and Gris.


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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 4:17 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Mar-31 8:25 pm
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Location: New Zealand
trevor wrote:
People always say the banned list is a representation. Yet all 5 moxes are banned. Why? Because people would definitely play the other 4 if 1 were banned. The same will be true of YB and Gris.


Moxes are banned comprehensively for both a cost and power level concern. Come on trevor, you should know this.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 4:36 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Apr-01 1:06 pm
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Pysces wrote:
The underlying point I suppose I am trying to make is that I could see myself including Bargain innocently in a lot more lists then I could Griselbrand, with the intent to not to abuse either card. In this direct sense, I consider Bargain worse because it exasperates the chance of other people including the card 'innocently' but then abusing it mercilessly (e.g. ala other banned cards that look innocent on paper, but aren't).
I agree with this statement. If you intend to use Griselbrand and NOT abuse him, you will do so. It may be hard but you can by convincing yourself that your opponent may have 28 mana and Exsanguinate or something and everyone else will live while you die, so you should only use it once. Yawg bargain.... is a different story. It is too easy to think that using it for its evil purpose is justified because of it's drawback (pun unintended) and the fact that you aren't gaining all those cards at once. Plus, the "it dies to removal" argument here favors GB, for it is a creature, which means that Black Sun's Zenith, any wrath, PTE, STP, clones, and stealers all stop it from helping you. The number of enchantment removal that is commonly played is high, but not as high nor as powerful.

Pysces wrote:
Emrakul is not IMO a good comparison to Griselbrand at all in this sense, because Emrakul is pretty unique and doesn't already have a card on the banned list similar in nature (Kokusho possibly being the closest but still not quite the same IMO).
I'm not sure why people are comparing GB to Emmy at all. Emmy isn't an instant win if you have combos. GB doesn't prevent your opponents from playing the game. Emmy can't be reanimated and costs nearly twice as much. GB can't be included in every deck and has drawbacks. Other than their respective power levels, I see no similarities. If you're going to try to compare GB to another creature, the only similar one of which I can think is Protean Hulk.
trevor wrote:
People always say the banned list is a representation. Yet all 5 moxes are banned. Why? Because people would definitely play the other 4 if 1 were banned. The same will be true of YB and Gris.
The difference there is that each mox can be used in a different deck. There's no red version of Recurring Nightmare. If there was, that would probably be banned too. All five moxes are the same card, its just that you can use each in a different deck based on the colors.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 5:28 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
More importantly, he's NOT just stupid in the decks running combo. He's makes basically any game he show up in 100% about him. Out of 14 games he showed up in (excluding the combo deck games, where his controller won EVERY TIME), his controller won 13 of them.


Are these decks mostly paying 8 or mostly cheating him in somehow?

Are they multi-player or 1v1 games?

Is he getting to untap and swing, or is he immediately getting hit with removal?

How many times did he get countered or exiled from a graveyard before someone cheated him in?

I think to justify pre-banning a card, you need to be really explicit about the testing you did and against what sort of a field. I think the odds are that this guy will end up banned after people have played with him for a while because it sounds like every deck with Swamps will want to run him, but making that call before he gets out into the wider world takes a heavier burden of proof from the few people who are testing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 6:28 pm 
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The only distinguishment people will make between YB and Gris due to one having a drawback is that one will go in more decks. That doesn't mean it will somehow go in less BROKEN decks.

Small correction Pyces: moxes AND YB were banned due to their and power level. 6 mana is also pretty well costed for draw 30+ cards at your discretion.


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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 6:55 pm 
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I find yawg's analysis extremely interesting however I'm not sure if it's useful in a discussion on the chance of this guy being banned. No one here should expect this guy to be banned out of the blocks, and I assume not until December 20th at the extreme earliest. This is just speculation on something that interests us. If Griselbrand does get banned, it's because he's affecting games that don't even have an infinite combo in their deck. As someone else mentioned, adding this guy to an already tuned combo deck is reasonably marginal.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-15 7:25 pm 
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trevor wrote:
The only distinguishment people will make between YB and Gris due to one having a drawback is that one will go in more decks. That doesn't mean it will somehow go in less BROKEN decks.

Small correction Pyces: moxes AND YB were banned due to their and power level. 6 mana is also pretty well costed for draw 30+ cards at your discretion.


When I mentioned cost, I meant $$$ value good sir, not CMC.

Moxes are comprehensively banned outright because of their $$$ value and power level.

E.g. you were comparing apples to oranges.

Even if your comparison did have any merit, you are basically narrowing in on a very small corner case in the banned list as some sort of argument that the banned list isn't representational. As Grand Abolisher stated, the banned Moxes are basically the same card, so justification to their universal banning is pretty warranted.

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