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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-13 4:42 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-05 7:30 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Griselbrand + Words of Worship + Cadaverous Bloom FTW

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Shards:
Big Mac and Pickles (Angus Mackenzie Control inc. Pickles Lock)|Sharuum (Artifact Combo)|Garza Zol (Vampires+Goodstuff); Sedris (I can steal anything); Nicol Bolas (WIP)|Kresh (Jund Good Stuff);Karrthus (Dragon Tokens Everywhere)|Tamanoa (Earthquakes Galore)
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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-13 4:54 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
yawg07 wrote:
Who here has gotten to test this thing with their playgroups?
It feels REALLY reminiscent of the Emrakul days around here.

You could have a strategy planned out to win, but Reanimate/Bribery/Cheat In Griselbrand is almost always superior.

"I have this path to victory, but it'll take a few turns and I have to worry what Steve is gonna do with Arcum. Oh wait, I'll just draw 28-35 cards and end the game."

He doesn't take up too much deck space, really...
If you are running a bunch of tutors already, it is easy. (Vamp, Demonic, Personal, Mystical, Enlightened... Seal/Grim if you got em)
Just add Reanimate, Animate Dead, Exhume, Entomb, and Griselbrand
Now, whenever you have Entomb and a tutor, or a reanimation spell and a tutor, get the other piece.
Watch how easy it is to crumble a game into dust with a turn 3 Griselbrand. ESPECIALLY if your deck is combo to begin with.

"People will play with it in a fair manner" is a terrible precedent. Protean Hulk is on the banlist.
Kokusho and Emrakul are on there too, because the game revolves around them.
The difference with Griselbrand is that it revolves around him for like one turn and then the game is done.

I dunno, the thing is actually BETTER than Yawg Bargain in a lot of ways. The cheating into play is so much simpler if the card is a creature.
Sure, someone will play 8 swamps and cast him on turn 8 and will draw 7 cards with it when it is fair... but how likely is it that anyone you play with is that person?

Not to mention the fact that they're already running that deck, so it's more of cut one card to make my reanimator deck even more likely to have a great opening draw, rather than altering or building around him altogether.


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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-13 6:37 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-08 5:27 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
Hermit Druid and palinchron are both better than this guy. The real test is does he break your existing decks?

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-13 6:50 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
onlainari wrote:
Hermit Druid and palinchron are both better than this guy. The real test is does he break your existing decks?


Reasonable assessment. In this regard, he's no Mikaeus.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-13 7:09 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Canberra
I have two black decks and he doesn't fit either of them, and that's mostly because neither of them are good at dread return style recursion. As people mentioned a lot already, he needs to be put onto the battlefield from the graveyard. I think this style is limiting enough, but I would not bet on it. Basically, no one should expect this guy to be banned within the first 6 months and likely never. How many of your decks can kill by drawing 21 cards? The game has to end somehow and if you have to give your opponents a few turns to deal with you and they fail, then that's a good game.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-14 9:03 am 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
olainari wrote:
Hermit Druid and palinchron are both better than this guy. The real test is does he break your existing decks?

Hermit Druid is better for sure, but you have to bend an entire deck around him to make him work like the combo engine he is.
Palinchron can be situationally better, but the amount of times you can turn 3 a Palinchron and just WIN are far less than with Griselbrand.
The thing with a lot of existing decks is that combo decks would KILL for Yawg Bargain. And this guy is even easier to play.

Well, so far it has been like this.

Reanimate or Bribery Griselbrand, usually around turn 3-ish
Pass turn, then on opponent's upkeep draw 28 cards
In these 28, you will USUALLY get a FoW/Misdirection/Pact if you have the mana (or if you are really dedicated a Not of This World)
Counter a removal/steal effect on him (countered two gilded drakes now)
When it gets to your turn, play a topdeck tutor if you have one, attack someone, and then proceed to win

In fact this is how it has been almost every time, haha.
I'm just saying that when Griselbrand hits, his presence is IMMEDIATELY overwhelming. It becomes hard to lose.
I'd personally rally for his banning, but I'd like to playtest another 50 or so games, first.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-14 9:18 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Sheldon wrote:
onlainari wrote:
Hermit Druid and palinchron are both better than this guy. The real test is does he break your existing decks?


Reasonable assessment. In this regard, he's no Mikaeus.


This suggest that Mikaeus breaks existing decks......

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-14 10:25 am 

Joined: 2010-Apr-02 6:44 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Flyover Country, United States
zimagic wrote:
Sheldon wrote:
onlainari wrote:
Hermit Druid and palinchron are both better than this guy. The real test is does he break your existing decks?


Reasonable assessment. In this regard, he's no Mikaeus.


This suggest that Mikaeus breaks existing decks......


Which, of course, Mikaeus, cool as he is, DOESN'T do.

I am quite convinced that Griselbrand is going to be stupidly unfair, but we will see.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-14 12:49 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
yawg07 wrote:
I dunno, the thing is actually BETTER than Yawg Bargain in a lot of ways. The cheating into play is so much simpler if the card is a creature.

I think it's worse than Bargain (just my snap-judgment, of course), but, I don't think he's banworthy.

1. You have to pay in chunks of 7. That means:
a) You can't go one at a time to get the answer you want, and sometimes, 7 life all at once is a big deal.
b) Griselbrand has a very special vulnerability to Stifle, Trickbind and Voidslime. Yeah, you could just pay life again, but paying 1-3 mana for 7 damage is not inconsiderable.
2. It's 8 mana. If you're hardcasting it, it's about as fair as any number of other top-end spells that will conditionally win you the game.
3. Griselbrand's creature status means you can cheat him into play. But if you're cheating them into play, especially via Animate Dead and it's ilk, there's all manner of goofy stuff you could be doing instead. Let's not forget that Worldgorger Dragon can also be targeted by these cards.
4. It being a creature does not mean that it's just better than Yawgmoth's Bargain. Other people might try to steal/copy/control him. An effect with legs is not strictly better than an effect without legs. I realize you could draw a bunch of cards in response if it was a theft from play (barring Word of Seizing or Take Possession), but, any old jerk can cast Necromancy as an instant, and run away with your engine.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-14 2:07 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-29 8:11 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Michigan
Few things to take into account in this discussion:

1. Yawg has actually tested this card in his group, so he has actual results.
2. Yawg's playgroup is not typical, and is on the hyper-competitive end of the spectrum.
3. More testing is needed in a multitude of play groups.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-14 4:51 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
Cervid wrote:
Few things to take into account in this discussion:

1. Yawg has actually tested this card in his group, so he has actual results.
2. Yawg's playgroup is not typical, and is on the hyper-competitive end of the spectrum.
3. More testing is needed in a multitude of play groups.


#2, yes. I'm sorry, I often forget to mention that we are really cutthroat.
Maybe in more normal groups, he is okay. I mean, regardless of "tier" he is REALLY powerful.
I'll surely be playing him in my Karador list, Loyal Retainers gets a new best buddy!

I'll be keeping actual data on him, because it seems like the right thing to do when you are trying to figure out a card's potential legality.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-14 4:54 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-02 11:07 am
Age: Elder Dragon
onlainari wrote:
Hermit Druid and palinchron are both better than this guy. The real test is does he break your existing decks?


I have one deck that he would be very stupid in. My BGW Life & Death deck has a ton of lifegain and reanimation, and the excessive # of cards I'd get from this guy would be very strong.

Also, Words of Worship + Sanguine Bond seems strong with this one.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-14 4:59 pm 
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Joined: 2007-Sep-10 2:51 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rittman, OH USA
Sinis wrote:
yawg07 wrote:
I dunno, the thing is actually BETTER than Yawg Bargain in a lot of ways. The cheating into play is so much simpler if the card is a creature.

I think it's worse than Bargain (just my snap-judgment, of course), but, I don't think he's banworthy.

1. You have to pay in chunks of 7. That means:
a) You can't go one at a time to get the answer you want, and sometimes, 7 life all at once is a big deal.
b) Griselbrand has a very special vulnerability to Stifle, Trickbind and Voidslime. Yeah, you could just pay life again, but paying 1-3 mana for 7 damage is not inconsiderable.
2. It's 8 mana. If you're hardcasting it, it's about as fair as any number of other top-end spells that will conditionally win you the game.
3. Griselbrand's creature status means you can cheat him into play. But if you're cheating them into play, especially via Animate Dead and it's ilk, there's all manner of goofy stuff you could be doing instead. Let's not forget that Worldgorger Dragon can also be targeted by these cards.
4. It being a creature does not mean that it's just better than Yawgmoth's Bargain. Other people might try to steal/copy/control him. An effect with legs is not strictly better than an effect without legs. I realize you could draw a bunch of cards in response if it was a theft from play (barring Word of Seizing or Take Possession), but, any old jerk can cast Necromancy as an instant, and run away with your engine.


1. Yes, this IS the worst part of him. But early in the game dropping 28 or so is no big deal if you're just gonna win right there.
2. Agreed, when it comes to hardcasting, I'd rather be playing something like Time Spiral to be honest. Though, it depends how much ramp I've had.
3. Right, but Worldgorger requires a setup and requires you to play red :/ Griselbrand outclasses pretty much every other target. Even Jin, but not ALL of the time.
4. I'm not worried about answers to him that cost 5 or more, usually he affects the game before then.
    If they are killing him, it's fine to draw 28 or so and let him die.
    If they are taking him (usually Gilded Drake), then you have to draw cards and hope for a free counter or something (or StP/Path him in response)
    Ah yes, Necromancy is the worst possible thing. "Oh I'll take him and draw some multiple of 7, THANKS!" I totally forgot the defensive use of that card.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-14 7:20 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Apr-01 1:06 pm
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Some reasons that I think Griselbrand is NOT extraordinarily problematic:

1. He is a creature. There is many different kinds of creature removal, and most of it is pretty powerful. May I also mention that being a creature, he is very subject to two things that are very prevalent in EDH: theivery and wraths.

2. I know "run answers" should never be your main argument, but several cards in EDH that are already very good form powerful answers to him. The most notable is Consecrated Sphinx, who essentially makes your opponent give you 14 cards every time he activates the ability. Another very good answer I know is Time Stop. In response to Griselbrand using his ability the last time, you stop time, making your opponent lose 7 life for nothing, and discard down to 7 (assuming they don't have a card like R. Tower out). Also, a lot of enchantments like Wound Reflection, Spiteful Visions, and Vicious Shadows could easily ruin a Griselbrand player.

3. I do not mean to sound accusatory of yawg in any way, but from what you're saying, it seems as if GB's player always draws Reanimate and Entomb in his/her openning hand, and is always running counterspells. Although I know that's probably not what you meant, I hate it when people describing good reanimator targets use that exact equation. People always say that Entomb and some reanimator card are going to get him in the graveyard, and then we're all fucked. I don't believe that. I play against several reanimator decks, and they don't get something like that very often. And to stop people from saying "oh, he's in black, there's gonna be tutors for those kinds of cards", that situation is a problem with the player, not the card. If you specifically decide "I'm going to fill my deck with tutors and combo cards X, Y, and Z, and I'll get all three early on and win", that has nothing to do with the combo cards. Replace GB, Entomb, and Reanimate with Sliver Queen, Mana Echoes, and Concordant Crossroads. Combo still there.

4. This is probably going to be taken the wrong way, but he is not THAT powerful of a card. No doubt he is extraordinarily powerful, but I don't think he's to the level of banning. Consecrated Sphinx does something very similar, but its still running around, and may I mention that its a creature just like GB, but at the same CMC of Yawg Bargain. Many people are going to disagree with me heavily, but I really don't think he could be THAT powerful.

With all the above said, I would like to point out that this could be a turning point in EDH. Kokusho and Protean Hulk are NOT more broken than GB, not by a long shot. If they decide to keep GB, then I think it would be very fair to say that PH and Koko are unban-worthy. We've already seen the rise in powercreep via all the supercreatures since Lorwyn (most notably PT and CS), and with all the new wonders and horrors powercreep brings, those two are not any more dangerous than many creatures printed in recent years. However, if they do eventually ban GB, then that means that the list will have tighter control then many of us had thought, and dreams of Koko or PH getting free are going down.

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 Post subject: Re: Griselbrand.
AgePosted: 2012-Apr-14 10:02 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
yawg07 wrote:
1. Yes, this IS the worst part of him. But early in the game dropping 28 or so is no big deal if you're just gonna win right there.
This is definitely the part that I worry about; someone Entombs or Buried Alives him, and subsequently animates him, pays a heap of life, and combos out.

... but, that's not really any worse than Jin-Gitaxias, Core Auger in a lot of ways. Basically, if you can combo out right post-animate dead, Griselbrand is better. Yet, if you can't, Jin-Gitaxias is a superior play. Just saying that Jin-Gitaxias is comparable is revealing; even though Jin is subject to many more answers, I am lead to believe that Griselbrand isn't really any more problematic than existing cards.
Quote:
2. Agreed, when it comes to hardcasting, I'd rather be playing something like Time Spiral to be honest. Though, it depends how much ramp I've had.
I think as hardcast, Griselbrand isn't really a concern. We can just file him in with Insurrection, entwined Tooth and Nail. There are a lot of ways to win by tapping 8 or 9 mana, and casting a single spell.
Quote:
3. Right, but Worldgorger requires a setup and requires you to play red :/ Griselbrand outclasses pretty much every other target. Even Jin, but not ALL of the time.
Griselbrand doesn't automatically win, though. If you pay 28-35 life, and then *don't* combo out, you lose. All things considered, if you're rushing in with an animate play, there's a significant chance that you wont combo out simply due to mana restrictions, unless you have a ton of hard redundancy (which is really hard to do, depending on the combo).

WGD always ends the game. Sometimes it's a draw. As for 'having to play red', that's not such a big deal. The worst combo decks are 5 colour anyway.

Quote:
4. I'm not worried about answers to him that cost 5 or more, usually he affects the game before then.
I guess. I figure the cards that will work the best are the 'trap' graveyard hate cards in intreped's thread over in the strategy forum. If he's being cast for 8, I don't see how he's so much worse than a ton of other cards in the format.

I guess the thing I mean to question is, at the end of the day, is this worse than Jin-Gitaxias? Hermit Druid combo? The answers are the same, for the most part, and their effects are similar. If someone wants to break this wide open, Griselbrand is simply the latest addition in a long list of stuff that people should probably avoid if they want to have fun casual games.

In a more competitive environment, I think you can expect people to be playing the right metagame choices, like Rapid Decay, Shred Memory, Cremate and similar. When I played in a cutthroat environment, player simply had to pack their answers, and usually in massive quantities.

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