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 Post subject: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-20 11:53 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jun-29 9:22 am
Age: Drake
Location: New Hampshire
New Card
Elbrus, The Binding Blade 7
Legendary Artifact - Equipment (M)
Equipped creature gets +1/+0.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, transform Elbrus, the Binding Blade.
Equip 1
////////
Withengar Unbound [Black]

Legendary Creature - Demon
Flying, trample, intimidate
Whenever a player loses the game, put thirteen +1/+1 counters on Withengar Unbound.
13/13

People over at Salvation were saying that this *might* be legal as a general.

That is incorrect, right? It would not be legal for the same reason the Bushi Tenderfoot isn't, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-20 11:59 am 
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Joined: 2010-Aug-06 1:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: USA
I dunno, technically it's Legendary on both sides.... but legendary artifacts (sans the creature) aren't valid Generals.

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A few of my EDH Generals:
~ Mayael the Anima - Mayael the 5-Power Stompy
~ Marath, Will of the Wild - An EDH Teacher deck (Tribal Beasts)
~ Rhys the Redeemed - Tokens... Why do they keep coming!?
~ Bosh, Iron Golem - Legend of the Iron Giants
~ Damia, Sage of Stone - All Creatures Great & Small


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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-20 12:36 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Aug-23 10:03 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: The Netherlands - Hoorn
However, all the old flip legends start as creatures and end as something else. Elbrus starts as an artifact and ends as a creature. Completely different story here.


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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-20 1:13 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Aug-17 12:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Nashua/Salem, NH
I can't possibly imagine this being officially legal, though local playgroups may allow it.

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Paper listed here (link)
Mayael the Anima
Kresh
Sharuum
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
Garza Zol
Edric
Damia
Zedruu
Ashling the Pilgrim
Karona, False God
Grimgrin
Rhys the Redeemed
Kaervek
Wrexial
Bruna
Melek
Brigid
Stonebrow
Jor Kadeen
Mimeoplasm
Balthor
Yeva
Kira
Progenitus
Vish Kal
Animar
Kaalia
Ghave
Skullbriar


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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-20 2:10 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Only creature cards are legal generals. This isn't a creature card. Local playgroups would probably allow it, but it probably wouldn't be a very exciting general for Mono Black compared to some of the totally bonkers options you have out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-20 2:12 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Assuming the spoiled card is correct, Elbrus does not meet the requirements for being used as a general. The card as it exists in the Command Zone is legendary, but it is not a creature.


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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-23 7:06 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
Assuming the spoiled card is correct, Elbrus does not meet the requirements for being used as a general. The card as it exists in the Command Zone is legendary, but it is not a creature.


While obviously you (and the rest of the RC) get to make the final ruling, the logic you just used doesn't really make any sense. The choice of commander is part of deck construction, so what a card would look like once in the command zone doesn't seem like it would have any bearing on that. In addition, the RC has previously ruled that part 3 of the deck construction rules look at both sides of a DFC card, which is why Elbrus will only be legal in a deck with a black commander. Saying that one section of the deck construction rules get to look at both sides of a DFC, but another section doesn't get to look at both sides, really doesn't seem to make sense.
To be remotely consistent, you really have to choose one way or the other. Either both sides are looked at during deck construction, and thus Elbrus is a legal commander with a black color identity, or only the front of a card is looked at during deck construction, and Elbrus is not a legal commander, but has no color identity.

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-23 7:33 am 
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Joined: 2010-Aug-17 12:14 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Nashua/Salem, NH
kaldare wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
Assuming the spoiled card is correct, Elbrus does not meet the requirements for being used as a general. The card as it exists in the Command Zone is legendary, but it is not a creature.


While obviously you (and the rest of the RC) get to make the final ruling, the logic you just used doesn't really make any sense. The choice of commander is part of deck construction, so what a card would look like once in the command zone doesn't seem like it would have any bearing on that. In addition, the RC has previously ruled that part 3 of the deck construction rules look at both sides of a DFC card, which is why Elbrus will only be legal in a deck with a black commander. Saying that one section of the deck construction rules get to look at both sides of a DFC, but another section doesn't get to look at both sides, really doesn't seem to make sense.
To be remotely consistent, you really have to choose one way or the other. Either both sides are looked at during deck construction, and thus Elbrus is a legal commander with a black color identity, or only the front of a card is looked at during deck construction, and Elbrus is not a legal commander, but has no color identity.

By a similar argument, both halves of a flip card are considered, but flip cards where the 'primary' mode is a non-creature, but the other half is a Legendary creature aren't valid commanders.

I don't see any conflict here. I would have been surprised if Elbrus would be allowed as a commander.

_________________
Paper listed here (link)
Mayael the Anima
Kresh
Sharuum
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
Garza Zol
Edric
Damia
Zedruu
Ashling the Pilgrim
Karona, False God
Grimgrin
Rhys the Redeemed
Kaervek
Wrexial
Bruna
Melek
Brigid
Stonebrow
Jor Kadeen
Mimeoplasm
Balthor
Yeva
Kira
Progenitus
Vish Kal
Animar
Kaalia
Ghave
Skullbriar


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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-23 8:10 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
In addition, the RC has previously ruled that part 3 of the deck construction rules look at both sides of a DFC card, which is why Elbrus will only be legal in a deck with a black commander.

Except, rule 3 isn't rule 2 - which is the restricting rule here. There is no inconsistency.

kaldare wrote:
Saying that one section of the deck construction rules get to look at both sides of a DFC, but another section doesn't get to look at both sides, really doesn't seem to make sense.

Rule 2 - choosing your commander - asks you to choose a legendary creature card. There are no new rules on what constitutes a legendary creature card, so we check the base magic rules. And the sword, even if it can turn into a legendary creature, isn't a legendary creature card.

Rule 3 - colour identity - is something new to the game. Why should it only check one side of a card? To be consistent with something that already exists? But this is something intended to be new and unique to the format, so there is no reason it should be held to doing things the same way that other existing aspects work. So long as this particular rule is consistent with itself, it doesn't cause any inconsistency when looking at the other rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-23 8:36 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Except, rule 3 isn't rule 2 - which is the restricting rule here. There is no inconsistency.

...What? The fact that one deck building rule looks at both sides of a card and the other doesn't IS the inconsistency.

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-23 9:04 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Feel free to think so. But colour identity has always been something new and unique to the format, and not the same as the picking of a legendary creature card for your commander/general. There has never been any need for it to be the same as the picking of the legendary creature card, so I'm not sure why you feel they should be the same.

It's only inconsistent if you feel they should be tied together - but they aren't, thus no inconsistency.


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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-23 1:32 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
[O] Elbrus is not playable as a General, and its color identity is Black.

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"Leave the gun. Take the cannolis."


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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-23 1:45 pm 
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Joined: 2011-May-04 9:09 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Saskatchewan
Kaldare, would you happen to be a hipster? Just curious...I heard they might be the "in" thing right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-24 9:08 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ukkmaster wrote:
Kaldare, would you happen to be a hipster? Just curious...I heard they might be the "in" thing right now.


:')

Well.... that and vampires :(

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Teneb, the Harvester
Heartless Hidetsugu
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen
Reaper King
Ruhan of the Fomori
Hanna, Ship's Navigator
Ol
oro, Ageless Ascetic
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Nekusar, the Mindrazer



Sapling of Colfenor
Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Niv-Mizzet the Firemind
Ghost Council of Orzhova
Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary



Child of Alara
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Rith, the Awakener
Brion Stoutarm
Experiment Kraj
Razia, Boros Archangel
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Wort, Bogart Auntie
Kaalia of the Vast
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls


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 Post subject: Re: Elbrus, the Binding Blade
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-24 9:14 am 
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Joined: 2011-Aug-13 2:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Ukkmaster wrote:
Kaldare, would you happen to be a hipster? Just curious...I heard they might be the "in" thing right now.

According to Scott Pilgrim vs. The World, pirates are in this year.

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My Commander decks:
Damia, Sage of Stone - Non-obnoxious goodstuff
Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - Tokens, recursion, and lifegain
Vorel of the Hull Clade - Abusing counters for fun and profit


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