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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 5:09 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Erayo is banned? Thank Christ. If I manage to travel back in time and erase all the times I faced that goddamn deck, it would still be too many. (I do remember making a comment to the effect of "how crushingly oppressive does a blue general have to get..." a ways back. This is me, feeling smug and vindicated :twisted: ) Full disclosure, though: Beating Erayo with Ib Halfheart was one of the highlights of my Magic career.

I don't care about LED. No one I know owns or plays it, I'm not generally fond of discarding my hand, and the art is uglier than homegrown sin.

I do feel a bit bad about Shahrazad. A guy in my current playgroup was building a deck just to abuse it, and having contributed to this discussion previously, I feel a bit let down that I never got to see it go off. I know it would a small slice of hell to actually do, but totally worth it just to say you did it.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 6:30 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Since I can't play Erayo as my General anymore, I'll just make a Sen Triplets monoblue deck with a few nonbasic lands and some black tutors.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 6:38 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Joz wrote:
Since I can't play Erayo as my General anymore, I'll just make a Sen Triplets monoblue deck with a few nonbasic lands and some black tutors.
Why triplets? There are so many good U/B and Esper generals...

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 6:51 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
Joz wrote:
Since I can't play Erayo as my General anymore, I'll just make a Sen Triplets monoblue deck with a few nonbasic lands and some black tutors.
Why triplets? There are so many good U/B and Esper generals...


Triplets is Esper.

Gives me access to:
Path to Exile
Swords to Plowshares
Damnation
Demonic Tutor
Diabolic Tutor
Enlightended Tutor
BLUE
Wrath of God
Hollowed Burial
Decree of Pain
Overwhelming Forces
Land Tax
Weathered Wayfarer
Yawgmoth's Will
Vindicate
Necrotic Sliver
Unmake
Necropotence
Moat
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
Debter's Knell
Stormscape Familar
etc...

all my favorite things in one deck.

Artifacts
cost reduction effect
and control.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 6:53 am 
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You seem to have missed the part where I said there are a lot of decent Esper generals. I'd play Merieke, Dromar, or Ertai 2.0, before triplets (I'm assuming your avoiding Sharuum or Zur for social reasons).

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 6:55 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
You seem to have missed the part where I said there are a lot of decent Esper generals. I'd play Merieke, Dromar, or Ertai 2.0, before triplets (I'm assuming your avoiding Sharuum or Zur for social reasons).


No, but Sharuum is a combo general, Zur is a combo/control/aggro general.

I wanted a straight up control deck to support Erayo. And triplets allows me to do very stupid things, and I can combine it with bounce to grab stuff in play, nearly permenently.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 7:01 am 
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Joz wrote:
Sinis wrote:
You seem to have missed the part where I said there are a lot of decent Esper generals. I'd play Merieke, Dromar, or Ertai 2.0, before triplets (I'm assuming your avoiding Sharuum or Zur for social reasons).


No, but Sharuum is a combo general, Zur is a combo/control/aggro general.

I wanted a straight up control deck to support Erayo. And triplets allows me to do very stupid things, and I can combine it with bounce to grab stuff in play, nearly permenently.
Mmm. I getcha. Merieke kinda does the same thing, though, only one card at a time, and she has the good sense to off the creature she previously controlled when she upgrades.

To each their own, I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 7:42 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Dza76Wutang wrote:
I would argue a lot of what was said about LED could be said about Gifts Ungiven.
...

You could, but you'd be missing the main argument for banning Gifts, which is that it really reads

3U:
This card looks like it's interesting but nope, it's really not.
Search your deck for four combo pieces and either lock out all other players from any interaction for the rest of the game or just outright win, on your upcoming turn.

I personally have ONLY ever seen it used in a degenerate way, except for the following:
One time I used Gift's for: Solemn, Forest, Civic Wayfinder and Man O War.
And the other 4 players at the table literally told me, and I'm paraphrasing here, "That is perhaps the WORST play ever made in the history of MTG."

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 8:41 am 

Joined: 2011-Jul-19 9:09 am
Age: Drake
I think that most people are over looking a huge part of what Geno said in the RC post.
Genomancer wrote:
...we feel that Erayo is a flagship example of a general whose sole purpose is to decrease interactivity. We don't think she's ever used to make games more interesting: the deck (and Erayo decks are pretty much identical) plays the same every game, requires fairly narrow answers to disrupt....

... what matters is that adding her to the banned list sends the clearest message that generals *like this* shouldn't be played... they make for boring games.



Now, I'm thinking that this is a pretty clear warning if you will, that unless some things change, future Zur's Generals might be waiting in the wings for the banhammer.

He seems to say pretty clearly that generals that lead to decks that play the same way EVERY game because the decks are almost all identical (note I said ALMOST all identical, I understand that you or your sisters boyfriends cousins aunt might have a Zur deck that is different than anyone elses), they have only a few limited ways to take care of the general before the game is in lock. I understand that Zur is a bit weaker...but honestly..how much? (I am really asking...I have never played against or seen Erayo played before) I do know that with a properly tuned Zur deck, you can lock up a 6 player game by turn 5...and that is even using Flickerform instead of Vanishing (I know better now thatnks to you guys!) I have done this. If people dont have the answers within the first turn Zur is out...it's hard to get rid of him.

My point is: I think that the banning of Erayo is meant to be a warning about other 'like' generals as well as just being constructive to the format. Pre-Erayo ban, Erayo was the 'strongest' general in terms of 'i'm going to win and you have to deal with it' type decks (or at least it seems that way). Now, the high man on the totem pole is Zur, I think that he is next to go.

I dont mean to imply that they will continue to ban generals that are 'generally (lol..play on words) better than any other, but the ones that stand WAAAAY above the rest in terms of dominating a game are on the block.

Let me further caveat this wall of text by saying that I am sure everyone has a story about how they stomped Zur or Erayo or Sharuum or all three at once...we know, it can be done. My point is not that EVERY deck that useses Erayo or Zur is automatically better than all other generals, it is that if built and played correctly, it has a much higher success rate when it is compared to decks that are built and played with equal amounts of skill. Plus it just locks all the other players out. AND im not saying this to advocate the banning of Zur..I like him..he was my first (STS)

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 8:52 am 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-04 8:04 am
Age: Elder Dragon
sandman1887 wrote:
I think that most people are over looking a huge part of what Geno said in the RC post.
Genomancer wrote:
...we feel that Erayo is a flagship example of a general whose sole purpose is to decrease interactivity. We don't think she's ever used to make games more interesting: the deck (and Erayo decks are pretty much identical) plays the same every game, requires fairly narrow answers to disrupt....

... what matters is that adding her to the banned list sends the clearest message that generals *like this* shouldn't be played... they make for boring games.



Now, I'm thinking that this is a pretty clear warning if you will, that unless some things change, future Zur's Generals might be waiting in the wings for the banhammer.

He seems to say pretty clearly that generals that lead to decks that play the same way EVERY game because the decks are almost all identical (note I said ALMOST all identical, I understand that you or your sisters boyfriends cousins aunt might have a Zur deck that is different than anyone elses), they have only a few limited ways to take care of the general before the game is in lock. I understand that Zur is a bit weaker...but honestly..how much? (I am really asking...I have never played against or seen Erayo played before) I do know that with a properly tuned Zur deck, you can lock up a 6 player game by turn 5...and that is even using Flickerform instead of Vanishing (I know better now thatnks to you guys!) I have done this. If people dont have the answers within the first turn Zur is out...it's hard to get rid of him.

My point is: I think that the banning of Erayo is meant to be a warning about other 'like' generals as well as just being constructive to the format. Pre-Erayo ban, Erayo was the 'strongest' general in terms of 'i'm going to win and you have to deal with it' type decks (or at least it seems that way). Now, the high man on the totem pole is Zur, I think that he is next to go.

I dont mean to imply that they will continue to ban generals that are 'generally (lol..play on words) better than any other, but the ones that stand WAAAAY above the rest in terms of dominating a game are on the block.

Let me further caveat this wall of text by saying that I am sure everyone has a story about how they stomped Zur or Erayo or Sharuum or all three at once...we know, it can be done. My point is not that EVERY deck that useses Erayo or Zur is automatically better than all other generals, it is that if built and played correctly, it has a much higher success rate when it is compared to decks that are built and played with equal amounts of skill. Plus it just locks all the other players out. AND im not saying this to advocate the banning of Zur..I like him..he was my first (STS)


Zur, Arcum, or whatever General you can come up with as a problem child tend to differ from Erayo in one major way. No one ever built a fun Erayo deck. I have seen plenty of decks built around "degenerate generals" that weren't degenerate. In fact i have run across a lot 'Fun" versions of these decks. They do powerful things but don't tend to be cut throat. I have never played against a Erayo deck that wasn't trying to lock everyone out of the game as fast as possible and in the same way as every single other Erayo deck.

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Last edited by GU Doug on 2011-Sep-21 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 9:27 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
sandman1887 wrote:
I think that most people are over looking a huge part of what Geno said in the RC post.
Genomancer wrote:
...we feel that Erayo is a flagship example of a general whose sole purpose is to decrease interactivity. We don't think she's ever used to make games more interesting: the deck (and Erayo decks are pretty much identical) plays the same every game, requires fairly narrow answers to disrupt....

... what matters is that adding her to the banned list sends the clearest message that generals *like this* shouldn't be played... they make for boring games.

Now, I'm thinking that this is a pretty clear warning if you will, that unless some things change, future Zur's Generals might be waiting in the wings for the banhammer.
What things are required to change? Is the threat "Stop playing Zur, or we'll make you stop playing Zur."?

Reading through this thread, most people never played against her, played against her once and won, or played games where both players had an understanding that it was going to be cutthroat. Yes, there are people that got burned by it, but people get burned by Uril, Zur, Sharuum and other generals every day. BFD.

Frankly, I think this is just an acknowledgement that some people had a bad time at gencon, because there were EDH tables for prizes, and some guys showed up with Erayo because there was an incentive to do so that's not normally present.

Zur is boring linear. Arcum is boring linear. Azusa is boring linear. Captain Sisay is boring linear. Sharuum is boring linear. Uril is boring linear. Sliver Overlord is boring linear. Lin Sivvi is linear (though, perhaps not boring). Reaper King Maelstrom Nexus Cascade is boring linear (and has NOTHING to do with Scarecrows).

Many of these also have narrow answers; If zur attacks even once, you're going to require something special to deal with him. If Azusa lives for even two turns, the damage will be done. Uril is the very definition of requiring narrow answers.

Where should we stop, I wonder?
Quote:
I dont mean to imply that they will continue to ban generals that are 'generally (lol..play on words) better than any other, but the ones that stand WAAAAY above the rest in terms of dominating a game are on the block.
I found that players who were unprepared for Erayo had trouble, but that others did not always get locked out and lose. I've had many games with Erayo, between a curious someone who wanted to see exactly how they would do against Erayo (this often ended in concession) and people who wanted to pit tuned broken vintage-lite decks against more of the same.

I realize this is an academic post in consideration of Erayo's banning, but I wanted to say that answering Erayo is far more plausible than most people think. Most of the time, people take Erayo's flip as granted, and then consider the oh-so-narrow options to removing her (which actually just involves playing a spell, and then a disenchant and hoping for the best). Think about the turn the Erayo player flips. Since many of you have stated that you've never actually played against her, I'll elaborate.

Typically the Erayo player is going to play a bunch of free or CMC 1 spells on turn 3; devoting two mana to Erayo, 1 to a non-free spell, and backing up with two freebies (like Gitaxian Probe, cards with Bauble in the title). Mana rocks don't really speed this up, they just make it more reliable, or create flexibilities in casting more CMC 1 spells instead of freebies, or can be counted as freebies.

Sometimes, those freebies are inflexible in a special way: Cloud of Faeries, Frantic Search and Snap are in many lists. The crux of this is this: if CoF FS or Snap is your free spell, you will have to play it first, untap your lands, play Erayo second, and then two more spells. This is also usually the case if you're counting on Sol Ring or Mana Vault for mana. What's the flaw here? If Erayo gets countered, the turn is blown before any other considerations. If you counter their counter, you've cast the 4th spell of the turn before Erayo is in play, so she doesn't flip (unless you threw something weird like a channeled Ghost-lit Warder, which is really unlikely). Turn busted, free spells wasted.

Similarly, if you tap out to play Erayo, and some cheap and free spells, and then, in response to the flip trigger a player plays removal (like Swords, Unsummon, or whatever), that's it; you better have a free counterspell in hand, AND the alternate costs available (and believe me, this is *not* a guarantee). Turn busted, free spells wasted.

Another (less likely) scenario is when a clever player can throw their first spell before Erayo flips, and then Naturalize/Disenchant/whatever Erayo in the post-flip. Turn busted, free spells wasted.

Finally, a multiplayer table can team up to sandbag Erayo; if the Erayo player announces his spellcast, and puts Erayo on the stack, if the other players can throw three instants or permanents with flash, the turn gets sandbagged. If the Erayo player is using Snap or Cloud of Faeries, then it only needs to be two instants.

People just needed to be playing with cheap creature removal, or counterspells, which they really ought to be playing anyway if they are playing in a cutthroat environment. Finally, the terrifying Arcane Laboratory lock is not actually all that common. There is a single tutor that enables this (Drift of Phantasms), while the remaining options for deck search are horrendously expensive, or better spent assembling a game ending combo. Often, by the time I could enable a Lab lock, other players actually had answers. The rest of the time, the Erayo player lives in fear that someone will chuck a cheap spell into Erayo's counter, and then bounce/destroy her (both of which are equally bad, and more likely than people generally give credit for).

I cannot explain how devastating any of this is to the Erayo player. Generally speaking, if this happens to you, you're done. Where's the fun in this vast possibility of exchanges on turn 2 or 3? Well, it's right there. I found it incredibly fun to play around people; even a single untapped island or plains in my opponent's clutches made the game very interesting to me. It's not for everyone, but it was definitely for me, and a handful of people I play with.

I understand that none of this applies to griefers; if you're not playing in a metagame where you everyone is playing casual (read: not crazy-silly) generals, and then somebody soft locks you out on turn 3, well, that's a social problem where one player is being a dink, or the players didn't communicate about what kind of game they wanted, OR there were prizes up for grabs and people didn't realize that meant that all bets were off.

So, there it is. Decks that were prepared had pretty good chances to stop an Erayo deck, after they burned so many resources that they would need a Timetwister to recover. Erayo was great, maybe even the best, but far from the invincible pile that people make it out to be, especially at a multiplayer table where any one player with a swords/PTE/Unsummon/Snapback (and believe me, the latter two of those see play in more competitive circles) could stop it and count on counterspell backup from someone else. If you want to see exactly how fragile it might be, my farewell list is on the decklist forum: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10758
GU Doug wrote:
Zur, Arcum, or whatever General you can come up with as a problem child tend to differ from Erayo in one major way. No ever built a fun Erayo deck.
Stay tuned to http://www.CommanderCast.com. Sometime in the relatively near future (like in the next month or two, we have a lot of content), you'll perhaps see differently.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 9:57 am 
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Sinis wrote:
Stay tuned to http://www.CommanderCast.com. Sometime in the relatively near future (like in the next month or two, we have a lot of content), you'll perhaps see differently.


No

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 10:26 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Sinis wrote:
GU Doug wrote:
Zur, Arcum, or whatever General you can come up with as a problem child tend to differ from Erayo in one major way. No ever built a fun Erayo deck.
Stay tuned to http://www.CommanderCast.com. Sometime in the relatively near future (like in the next month or two, we have a lot of content), you'll perhaps see differently.

Image

Say what you want about the bannability of Erayo over Zur, Azusa, etc. (My own take: Maybe not WORSE than other problem generals, but I'm not sad she's gone either-- if she has to be made an example of so be it), but you can't convince me that she is a FUN general any more than you can convince me that Grand Arbiter Augustin IV is a fun general. At their core, both Erayo and GAAIV (And Horobi... And Hokori... And Gaddock Teeg... repeat as necessary) are generals designed to make you play the game on their terms. Even if you don't play Arcane Lab in Erayo, you are still forcing your opponents to throw away one spell per turn in order to play the spell they actually want, and a lot of decks don't have that capability. It's one thing to say "Play more removal to deal with Arcum or Zur"; it's another to say "Change the entire way you build your deck and play EDH to work around Erayo."

I grant you that it is possible to build a deck with Erayo as general which does not inherently do unfun things, and does not go directly for the prison state... but is a deck that is not designed to take full advantage of Erayo's built-in griefer ability really an "Erayo deck" per se? My sources say no.

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gaijinguy wrote:
As for blue- being boring/infuriating by crushing everyone else's fun until it assembles a cheeseball combo is pretty much what it DOES.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 10:50 am 

Joined: 2009-Jan-23 11:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis wrote:
...
Stuff
...

First, this entire justification behind your post puts the onus on the other players. Which is wrong. You're arguing for an antisocial deck by essentially saying an opponents well prepared deck (or decks) can deal with it.
But the whole issue with Erayo is that this kind of deck requires very specific answers (which are usually not otherwise played) and those answers need to be castable very early.

Second, show me a deck with Erayo as the general that's not looking to lock out a game and I'll ask the builder, "Why use Erayo if you're not going to utilize its very powerful ability? Why not use one of the other powerful monoBlue generals like Azami or Barin?"

The decision to be antisocial with Erayo is made in the deck building stage; no one ever says, "Oops, I just flipped Erayo, how did that happen?" It's never accidentally broken.
Players choose Erayo for one reason. Any suggestion otherwise is unconscious self-deception or an outright lie.

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Spekter wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra = My attempt to make my group move to ban Uril.
That's not ban-worthy, that's the spirit of EDH. Three-card combo involving the combat phase? Awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 1:42 pm 
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herodotusjr wrote:
Say what you want about the bannability of Erayo over Zur, Azusa, etc. (My own take: Maybe not WORSE than other problem generals, but I'm not sad she's gone either-- if she has to be made an example of so be it), but you can't convince me that she is a FUN general any more than you can convince me that Grand Arbiter Augustin IV is a fun general. At their core, both Erayo and GAAIV (And Horobi... And Hokori... And Gaddock Teeg... repeat as necessary) are generals designed to make you play the game on their terms.
Isn't that how any card works, though? I mean, if I play Avenger of Zendikar, don't you now have to play on my terms, and answer it with creatures, Propaganda, etc.? Erayo makes you play a certain way, yes, but in some sense, so does every other card.

Secondly, I don't expect you to have fun against my Erayo deck. I talk with my opponents to see if they would have fun and then play it only if they would. Your subjective definition of fun clearly differs, and I'm happy to respect that, but the way you've written implies objectivity which simply is not (and cannot) be present.
Quote:
Even if you don't play Arcane Lab in Erayo, you are still forcing your opponents to throw away one spell per turn in order to play the spell they actually want, and a lot of decks don't have that capability. It's one thing to say "Play more removal to deal with Arcum or Zur"; it's another to say "Change the entire way you build your deck and play EDH to work around Erayo."
Yes. Erayo demands answers in the same way that an Avenger of Zendikar demands answers. This is fine; the complaint of course, is that Erayo's answers are very narrow.
Quote:
I grant you that it is possible to build a deck with Erayo as general which does not inherently do unfun things, and does not go directly for the prison state... but is a deck that is not designed to take full advantage of Erayo's built-in griefer ability really an "Erayo deck" per se? My sources say no.
Why is it not an "Erayo deck"? I didn't realize that the essential feature of Erayo decks was an average turn 3 flip. It is completely possible to build a deck that does not take full leverage of a general's capability, and for it still to be a "X deck" where "X" is the general's name.

If I build a Rhys the Redeemed deck without Gaea's Cradle and Doubling Season, is it still a Rhys the Redeemed deck? I should hope so, everyone else seems to refer to it that way, and I'm not sure what we'd call it if you're right.

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