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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 11:53 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
I thought we were becoming more and more acceptable of 2-card combos in the format


Not really. Since there's no way to stop them, we just want those people to identify themselves as fast as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 12:14 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
Quote:
It took a fair amount of discussion and recognition to actually play Erayo (because, anything less than full disclosure and agreement that you're playing finely tuned savage decks is pretty much griefing), and the post-game discussion was always interesting, as we discussed our decision trees, why we did X or Y, or whether we had answers or not in the decks.
And you can still have that.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 12:22 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Fugu wrote:
Quote:
It took a fair amount of discussion and recognition to actually play Erayo (because, anything less than full disclosure and agreement that you're playing finely tuned savage decks is pretty much griefing), and the post-game discussion was always interesting, as we discussed our decision trees, why we did X or Y, or whether we had answers or not in the decks.
And you can still have that.
Not true. At least, not with Erayo. Playing competitively (and I don't mean tournament-wise) implicitly assumes the ban list. If I say "Hey guys, can I play my Erayo deck with a ton of free spells?" they'll say "Sure, let me get my moxen and black lotus." Competition in this sense means optimization within a set of restrictions. Once one restriction is out, all of them are.

I'm not really torn up about it either way, but it was fun for me, even if it wasn't for the majority of players I never played Erayo against. That said, I liked Erayo so much that I'm building a completely casual Erayo list that will be janky and fun, and not shut people out on turn 2 or 3 (which is what my current list does).

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 12:39 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
Carthain wrote:
I thought we were becoming more and more acceptable of 2-card combos in the format


Not really. Since there's no way to stop them, we just want those people to identify themselves as fast as possible.

So 'allowing' the 2-card combos allows for a shorter ban list, and as a litmus test on who 'gets' the format? Cute. I like it.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 1:17 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Feb-29 5:57 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Duvall, WA
YAY Eyaro is banned, I can take Red Elemental Blast out of all my decks now!


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 1:28 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Shoe wrote:
YAY Eyaro is banned, I can take Red Elemental Blast out of all my decks now!


Yay, I can buy everyone's extra Eyraos and put them in my decks for cheap!


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 7:03 pm 
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Joined: 2008-May-04 6:05 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Wisconsin
Overall, I give this update an "A".

I really like having LED being available. The implications this card has beyond the infinite combos are quite substantial. There are some decks who just want their hand in the graveyard for more than obvious reasons. Plus I like the option of playing my general for three less mana when I have no cards in my hand or being able to tutor up a card with extra mana available.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 8:50 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jul-09 10:45 am
Age: Wyvern
I really like this update. I've never had the misfortune of playing against an Erayo deck, but I have heard all the horror stories and seen plenty of goldfished god-plays that I'm glad I'll never have to.

Shahrazad is whatever, I personally am not affected by this in any way and most of my playgroups hated the idea of the card in the first place since it doesn't actually effect the game at all, so it wouldn't have been played regardless.

As for the LED unbanning? Fantastic. All that's left is for Kokusho and Painter's Servant to be unbanned (and possibly Staff of Domination, but I'm not seeing that happening or necessarily a good thing) and the list will be as short as it realistically should be.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 9:06 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
The Shortest Path wrote:
Painter's Servant to be unbanned

I just don't see that happening without Iona being banned simultaneously.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 9:15 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jul-09 10:45 am
Age: Wyvern
Sid the Chicken wrote:
The Shortest Path wrote:
Painter's Servant to be unbanned

I just don't see that happening without Iona being banned simultaneously.


I don't see why that's a problem in any way, shape, or form. Iona by herself causes more problems than Painter's Servant does in any situation.

In addition to that, Painter's Servant can do lots of fun and silly things that don't involve straight-up crippling people. Iona can't, as that's all she does. If one of the two has to be banned, it should absolutely be Iona. And even then, I don't necessarily think banning her would be mandatory, as there are plenty of already existing two-card combos that flat-out win the game, and none of those are banned (prior to the LED unbanning, of course) unless the contributing cards cause other problems by themselves or are just flat-out too powerful, such as Recurring Nightmare, Fastbond, and Panoptic Mirror. Painter has none of those problems, and is only problematic when paired with one of two other cards, one of which (Grindstone) is completely useless on its own. Plus, as so many people are happy to point out in other circumstances, the gentleman's agreement will stop anyone from running griefer decks designed to exploit Iona+Painter.

If anything, the unbanning of LED calls for the unbanning of Servant even more for the very reason that two-card combos are not a problem that should be addressed by the banlist.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 9:28 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Oct-18 8:52 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oz
The Shortest Path wrote:
If anything, the unbanning of LED calls for the unbanning of Servant even more for the very reason that two-card combos are not a problem that should be addressed by the banlist.
In my mind there's a big difference between 2-card combos that instantly win the game, and 2-card combos that lock everyone else out of the game while they sit and wait for you to win 4-8 turns later.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 9:38 pm 

Joined: 2011-Jul-09 10:45 am
Age: Wyvern
Daf wrote:
The Shortest Path wrote:
If anything, the unbanning of LED calls for the unbanning of Servant even more for the very reason that two-card combos are not a problem that should be addressed by the banlist.
In my mind there's a big difference between 2-card combos that instantly win the game, and 2-card combos that lock everyone else out of the game while they sit and wait for you to win 4-8 turns later.


I don't understand that reasoning. Sure, there might be a few players who don't understand that an Iona + Servant lock means they can no longer win barring something like Ghostfire, but I don't think anyone playing in a group with people like that would be using the combo in the first place.

I have never once seen someone try to play out a hard lock unless they legitimately have an answer for said lock. Perhaps that's something that should be taken into consideration, but it's a very limited corner case.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 10:40 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Denver, CO
I would say that the biggest problem with Iona + Painter's Servant is that you can Tooth and Nail for it. Yes, someone will inevitably mention Kiki+Pestermite n' friends, but that requires three colors and can be disrupted by removal. Searching out Iona+Servant lock can be disrupted by... Mouth of Ronom, I guess?

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 10:44 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Oct-14 7:43 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
obsidiandice wrote:
I would say that the biggest problem with Iona + Painter's Servant is that you can Tooth and Nail for it. Yes, someone will inevitably mention Kiki+Pestermite n' friends, but that requires three colors and can be disrupted by removal. Searching out Iona+Servant lock can be disrupted by... Mouth of Ronom, I guess?

Oh geez, I just realized Naya decks are going to be able to T&N for Kiki-Jiki + Village Bellringer now. :(


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-21 3:35 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-21 3:30 am
Age: Wyvern
I would argue a lot of what was said about LED could be said about Gifts Ungiven. The boring/unfun/asinine uses are clearly distinguishable from the fun/fair/interactive uses and it should get a chance to come out of exile, at least for a quarter or two.

Also, any word on Primeval Titan? That card drains the fun out of more games for me than any other.


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