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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 8:25 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
kaldare wrote:
LED is simply not that broken... It's a pretty good (but not great) combo piece; but unlike most of those combo pieces, it acually DOES have other uses. Allowing expensive commanders to come out sooner (but at a pretty steep cost) is perfectly fair. Yes, it's quite good with Sharuum... but don't pretend they're no disadvantage. You lose your entire hand; if your opponents can deal with whatever you grab, you're at a huge disadvantage.
Yeah, I don't think it's broken. At the very least, it's not banworthy. Though, it'll see play in Damia, as well as Sharuum.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 8:27 am 

Joined: 2010-Apr-02 6:44 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Flyover Country, United States
In Scion of the Ur-Dragon Lion's Eye Diamond will allow Scion to come out, and attack, on turn 2 with a god-hand. re-read that sentence. Even on just a good draw LED allows scion to come out a turn earlier AND ATTACK that turn. You will always pop the diamond for whichever color you need and use the extra 2 to tutor up a hasty dude and attack. The biggest reason that Sol Ring is good in scion is that an early turn Sol Ring gives you the bonus mana to activate and attack with Scion the Turn he comes into play and not have to wait for a turn cycle to pass.

Yeah, it has a "disadvantage". But reanimator decks often WANT to ditch their hand. This is DEFINITELY the case with Sharuum...and lets not forget that Salvaging Station brings it back...it will be STUPID with Memory Jar.

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Karn, Silver Golem
Hazezon Tamar
Zur the Enchanter
Riku of Two Reflections
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Progenitus - Creatures are for the Weak Retired.
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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 8:32 am 
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Location: Toronto, ON
Courtland wrote:
In Scion of the Ur-Dragon Lion's Eye Diamond will allow Scion to come out, and attack, on turn 2 with a god-hand. re-read that sentence.
I did. I'm confused. How does this happen on turn 2? Like, turn one, land, sol ring, ravnica signet, turn two, land, LED, Scion, pay 2 to copy Hellkite Overlord or Karrthus, swing?

I think that might be a little contrived. I mean, I can do it too, on turn two. Turn one, forest, Manabond, play 6 more lands on the end step. Turn 2, draw, cast, copy, swing.
Quote:
Even on just a good draw LED allows scion to come out a turn earlier AND ATTACK that turn. You will always pop the diamond for whichever color you need and use the extra 2 to tutor up a hasty dude and attack. The biggest reason that Sol Ring is good in scion is that an early turn Sol Ring gives you the bonus mana to activate and attack with Scion the Turn he comes into play and not have to wait for a turn cycle to pass.
Yeah, Sol Ring is good in Scion. How is this happenening on turn 2? I want to see your combo.
Quote:
Yeah, it has a "disadvantage". But reanimator decks often WANT to ditch their hand. This is DEFINITELY the case with Sharuum...and lets not forget that Salvaging Station brings it back...it will be STUPID with Memory Jar.
Yup. You'll be perfectly happy without the counterspell for their swords. It is a disadvantage.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 8:45 am 

Joined: 2010-Apr-02 6:44 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Flyover Country, United States
Sinis wrote:
Courtland wrote:
In Scion of the Ur-Dragon Lion's Eye Diamond will allow Scion to come out, and attack, on turn 2 with a god-hand. re-read that sentence.
I did. I'm confused. How does this happen on turn 2? Like, turn one, land, sol ring, ravnica signet, turn two, land, LED, Scion, pay 2 to copy Hellkite Overlord or Karrthus, swing?

I think that might be a little contrived.


Sure you could play it that way. I was actually thinking: Turn 1: Land, Mana Vault into Darksteel Ingot. Turn 2: Land, Mox Diamond, LED, Copy hasty dude swing. Does it seem a little contrived? Sure. I did say "GOD-HAND". The point is its a little ridiculous for a general with FIVE color commitments to come out that early off a hard-cast.

Sinis wrote:
Yup. You'll be perfectly happy without the counterspell for their swords. It is a disadvantage.
Once Sharuum has come in she has already done most of her work, thats the whole point of the deck...

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Sharuum, the Hegemon (Currently Foiling)
Scion of the Ur-Dragon (currently Foiling)
Karn, Silver Golem
Hazezon Tamar
Zur the Enchanter
Riku of Two Reflections
Very-nearly-Creatureless Sliver Queen PLaneswalkers (under Construction)
Progenitus - Creatures are for the Weak Retired.
Child of Alara: Lich Combo (under construction)


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 9:18 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Courtland wrote:
Sure you could play it that way. I was actually thinking: Turn 1: Land, Mana Vault into Darksteel Ingot. Turn 2: Land, Mox Diamond, LED, Copy hasty dude swing. Does it seem a little contrived? Sure. I did say "GOD-HAND". The point is its a little ridiculous for a general with FIVE color commitments to come out that early off a hard-cast.

I thought we were becoming more and more acceptable of 2-card combos in the format, and you are worried about what is essentially a 5+ card combo? And one that empty's your hand (part LED, partly that you are using 7 cards to do this) and doesn't win you the game immediately?

And as you said - it's a god hand.

If someone pulls this off once a month, I will be happy for them that they got to do something semi-ridiculous in commander. It's what the format is for.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 9:54 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
Courtland wrote:
Sinis wrote:
Courtland wrote:
In Scion of the Ur-Dragon Lion's Eye Diamond will allow Scion to come out, and attack, on turn 2 with a god-hand. re-read that sentence.
I did. I'm confused. How does this happen on turn 2? Like, turn one, land, sol ring, ravnica signet, turn two, land, LED, Scion, pay 2 to copy Hellkite Overlord or Karrthus, swing?

I think that might be a little contrived.


Sure you could play it that way. I was actually thinking: Turn 1: Land, Mana Vault into Darksteel Ingot. Turn 2: Land, Mox Diamond, LED, Copy hasty dude swing. Does it seem a little contrived? Sure. I did say "GOD-HAND". The point is its a little ridiculous for a general with FIVE color commitments to come out that early off a hard-cast.
Okay, but there have been lots of ways to get Scion out early. Pentad Prism alone drops him turn three. Add Sol Ring/Mana Vault/Mana Crypt on turn one or two, and you're swinging turn three too. Your god-hand that reaches to use LED is not exactly thrilling; in fact, it's actually quite disappointing. I'd much rather be able to keep that mana untapped instead of swinging with Scion; you might need it to counter someone's removal by switching to Yosei and timewalking them. 7 damage with no 'extra' is not how I would spend mana in Scion.
Quote:
Sinis wrote:
Yup. You'll be perfectly happy without the counterspell for their swords. It is a disadvantage.
Once Sharuum has come in she has already done most of her work, thats the whole point of the deck...
I meant for Scion; you're going to pop LED to deal someone 7, and they're going to answer you, and leave you with a bunch of lands and no hand. Sharuum probably hates the uncontested Return to Dust.

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Last edited by Sinis on 2011-Sep-20 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 10:04 am 

Joined: 2009-Aug-31 7:32 am
Age: Wyvern
LED being banned was good for the wrong reasons. Salvagers combo is pretty weak and was always the reason given for its banning.

"Black lotus for generals" is why it was an appropriate ban and the way the rules committee just skimmed over that part in their explanation is pretty sad.


Last edited by blarknob on 2011-Sep-20 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 10:09 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
blarknob wrote:
LED being banned was good for the wrong reasons. Salvagers combo is pretty weak and was always the reason given for its banning.

Black lotus for generals is why it was an appropriate ban and the way the rules committee just skimmed over that part in their explanation is pretty sad.
Well, if that's the concious level of acceptability, I hope they do not rethink Karakas' ban. That thing needs to stay where it is.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 10:23 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
those people cracking LED for an early general are....how can i put this nicely....stupid

getting your general 3 turns early to discard your hand is 95% of the time, a bad idea

althu i guess sharruum will have a field day haha

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 10:26 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-20 9:34 am
Age: Hatchling
DJ Catchem wrote:
@Kokusho...the fact that the RC occasionally asks for people to test it, and keeps getting the same feedback (usually a combination of "It was broken.", or "As soon as it hit the table, the game became all about it and nothing else.") is pretty damning. But I digress...

Wouldn't Kokusho be a safer unban if they used the General Ban on it? I mean the problem is the game being overcentralized by him, and we've got cards now that we already have that problem with (Primeval Titan, Concecrated Sphinx, Magistr Sphinx) that are free to roam. Without him being a General once someone exiles him, what should be a common tactic after the first few times a game devolves into Dragon-o-rama, he'd be gone for good.

The updates to the list are fine by me. Erayo has never been the biggest problem in my group, I've seen a Sharazad cast once (with a Hive Mind at that) and scooped immediatly. LED could cause waves, but I doubt it will. We've never had the pure combo players here.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 10:28 am 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-04 8:04 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kirby wrote:
those people cracking LED for an early general are....how can i put this nicely....stupid

getting your general 3 turns early to discard your hand is 95% of the time, a bad idea

althu i guess sharruum will have a field day haha


Damia doesn't seem to care about discarding of the hand. Seems like a good fit.

I have 3 decks that LED can go in right now because all the other bomberman pieces are already in the deck.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 10:43 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-25 9:22 am
Age: Elder Dragon
GU Doug wrote:
Kirby wrote:
those people cracking LED for an early general are....how can i put this nicely....stupid

getting your general 3 turns early to discard your hand is 95% of the time, a bad idea

althu i guess sharruum will have a field day haha


Damia doesn't seem to care about discarding of the hand. Seems like a good fit.

turn 4,land ,LED,crack it, play damia pass
you can't protector, are you suggesting no one would have a kill spell or a wipe?
then your stuck with 4 lands no hand and your general is already up two

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 10:54 am 
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Joined: 2008-Nov-04 8:04 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kirby wrote:
GU Doug wrote:
Kirby wrote:
those people cracking LED for an early general are....how can i put this nicely....stupid

getting your general 3 turns early to discard your hand is 95% of the time, a bad idea

althu i guess sharruum will have a field day haha


Damia doesn't seem to care about discarding of the hand. Seems like a good fit.

turn 4,land ,LED,crack it, play damia pass
you can't protector, are you suggesting no one would have a kill spell or a wipe?
then your stuck with 4 lands no hand and your general is already up two


I have seen plent of times a Damia player craps out their hand and plays Damia turn 4 and nothing happens to her. So times people don't have anything. Just because people run removal doesn't mean that it will always be in their hand. I run Arcum Daggson with with little protection and it doesn't seem to matter if I rush him out turn 2 or 3. Two different decks though. I don;t think Damia is going to win the next turn or so after she comes into play. I don't really care one way or the other. I was just suggesting that it seemed viable in Damia. Whether or not it is good in that deck or if someone is going to kill it is not going to change my bomberman plans one way or another.

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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 11:08 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I've seen plenty of times where I crap out domia on a 0-3 card hand,and then have removal aimed at domia and me for the rest of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: 9/20 Banned List Update Discussion
AgePosted: 2011-Sep-20 11:21 am 

Joined: 2008-Sep-09 9:54 am
Age: Dragon
Location: New England
CobraCommander wrote:
Wouldn't Kokusho be a safer unban if they used the General Ban on it? I mean the problem is the game being overcentralized by him, and we've got cards now that we already have that problem with (Primeval Titan, Concecrated Sphinx, Magistr Sphinx) that are free to roam. Without him being a General once someone exiles him, what should be a common tactic after the first few times a game devolves into Dragon-o-rama, he'd be gone for good.


Theoretically, this is true. In practice, though, I would imagine the stakes involved are what makes it such a hot commodity. With PrimeTime, you've got a potent accelerator, with Sphinx a busted draw engine. With Kokusho, you're talking an instant 20-point life swing in a 4-man game; the card gives a huge life boost to the controller, and also acts as a solid win condition too. Add in Rite Of Replication, gain 90 life, and reduce the rest of the table to spitting distance of losing. Even basic utility like Volrath's Stronghold becomes back-breaking.

The problem is that the reward makes it an overwhelming magnetic pull, and that unbalances the game in a big way. No one likes a "Deal With This Or Lose!" type of card, so everyone scrambles to play/steal/abuse Koko at the expense of anything else happening. That's the type of game the RC is trying to avoid.

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