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 Post subject: [EDH] - Karn, Silver Golem
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-16 10:13 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-04 11:08 pm
Age: Drake
As of 07/02/12

Land [38]
Ancient Tomb
Bazaar of Baghdad
Blasted Landscape
Blinkmoth Nexus
Blinkmoth Well
Buried Ruin
Cavern of Souls
City of Traitors
Crystal Vein
Darksteel Citadel
Deserted Temple
Dust Bowl
Gemstone Caverns
Ghost Quarter
Ghost Town
High Market
Homeward Path
Inkmoth Nexus
Maze of Ith
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
Miren, the Moaning Well
Mishra’s Factory
Mishra’s Workshop
Mystifying Maze
Petrified Field
Phyrexia's Core
Rishadan Port
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Tectonic Edge
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Tower of the Magistrate
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Urza’s Factory
Urza’s Mine
Urza’s Powerplant
Urza’s Tower
Vesuva
Wasteland

Artifact - Acceleration [10]
Basalt Monolith
Blinkmoth Urn
Grim Monolith
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Mind Stone
Semblance Anvil
Sol Ring
Thran Dynamo
Worn Powerstone

Artifact - Card Advantage/Quality [7]
Bottled Cloister
Grafted Skullcap
Memory Jar
Mind’s Eye
Seer’s Sundial
Staff of Nin
Temporal Aperture

Artifact - Tutor [2]
Expedition Map
Planar Portal

Artifact - Utility [15]
Clock of Omens
Crucible of Worlds
Darksteel Forge
Erratic Portal
Grafdigger's Cage
Mycosynth Lattice
Pithing Needle
Reito Lantern
Relic of Progenitus
Rings of Brighthearth
Sculpting Steel
Trading Post
Unwinding Clock
Vedalken Orrery
Voltaic Key

Artifact - Removal [7]
All is Dust
Nevinyrral's Disk
Oblivion Stone
Portcullis
Predator, Flagship
Spine of Ish Sah
Tawnos's Coffin

Artifact - Lock [17]
Arena of the Ancients
Chalice of the Void
Defense Grid
Forcefield
Icy Manipulator
Mindslaver
Null Brooch
Ring of Gix
Smokestack
Sphere of Resistance
Static Orb
Storage Matrix
Tangle Wire
Torpor Orb
Trinisphere
Uba Mask
Winter Orb

Artifact - Equipment [1]
Batterskull

Artifact - Creature [2]
Lodestone Golem
Voltaic Construct

General [1]
Karn, Silver Golem

I've seen a few threads regarding Karn on this forum with minimal conversation; does anyone actually play this guy?

Karn is interesting in that it can switch between Aggro/Aggro Control/Combo Control and Prison based strategies rather seamlessly. Only recently have I been able to play a few games with it and quite frankly it's a synergistic monster.

All thoughts, constructive criticisms, and suggestions are appreciated.

(New deck scans incoming).

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I for one welcome our new Robot Overlord; Karn, Silver Golem.


Last edited by Commandant on 2012-Jul-02 7:31 pm, edited 47 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] Karn, Silver Golem - Competitive
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-16 12:00 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-13 2:53 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Milwaukee, WI
One of my friends used to play a Karn deck that looked very similar to yours (he recently converted it to Memnarch though). He'd use Urza's Blueprints to draw insane amounts of cards and Planar Portal to tutor until he could generate infinite mana (either with Voltaic Construct and Karn or the ol' Rings/Basalt Monolith combo), play Mycosynth Lattice, then use Karn to destroy all of our lands and O stone to kill the rest of our stuff.

I also recall him doing something involving infinitely sacrificing a Wurmcoil Engine for infinite 3/3 tokens, but I don't remember exactly how.

The long and short of it: Once you have infinite mana and something to infinitely untap things (Clock or Voltaic Construct), you win.

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Please disregard the above post. I am probably tired/sick/brain damaged from inhaling metal fumes and dust at work.

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Rith, the Awakener (Formerly Asmira, Holy Avenger and Tolsimir Wolfblood)
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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] Karn, Silver Golem - Competitive
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-16 2:52 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-04 11:08 pm
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Not that big a fan of Urza's Blueprints. The cost always got to me and I have enjoyed tinkering with other engines. Puzzle Box is a lot better than it looks.

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I for one welcome our new Robot Overlord; Karn, Silver Golem.


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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] Karn, Silver Golem - Competitive
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-16 3:09 pm 

Joined: 2011-Mar-03 12:40 pm
Age: Dragon
Not sure what you did, but all your card links are broken.

This has to be the best Semblance Anvil deck ever.

Why not these?
Steel Hellkite
Sphere of Resistance/Trinisphere and family
Relic of Progenitus

My experience with these cards is limited to Vintage, and I'm not really sure what you mean by "competitive," so maybe there's a good reason :)

Helm of Awakening seems dangerous since it boosts them too. I'd rather play Guardian Idol or Everflowing Chalice.

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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] Karn, Silver Golem - Competitive
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-16 3:45 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-04 11:08 pm
Age: Drake
Card links should be fixed now. This forum has a very odd card tag code.

Steel Hellkite is on the short list of creatures I would actually play because it has a relevant ability other than "X cool ability that ends once this artifact creature gets removed which it will".

I haven't found a spot for him yet.

I like running less creatures because:
1. Blanks a lot of removal people use especially Wrath effects and Control effects.
2. Most of the abilities are not as relevant as people would have you believe (overkill-danger of cool things)/weak i.e. the Steel Hellkite example above.

I'm alright with Helm being symmetrical but it is one of the weaker slots.

I still need to find room for Karn, the Released.

So far for the sideboard I'd like to add more graveyard removal in the form of Tormod's/Relic. I would also like to try out Defense Grid. Past that I haven't a clue as to what to add.

I also added some scans to the original post.

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I for one welcome our new Robot Overlord; Karn, Silver Golem.


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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] Karn, Silver Golem - Competitive
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-16 4:44 pm 

Joined: 2011-Mar-03 12:40 pm
Age: Dragon
I think Relic of Progenitus is basically an auto-include in the maindeck since it cycles cheaply in the worst case.

Those scans are amazing!

Thran Tome seems worse than Candles of Leng.

I agree with the approach to blanking removal, and that's a valid reason to not include Hellkite, but what about Trinisphere? Also, if you're only going to play five creatures plus Karn, it seems like you could cut the equipment. Granted you can always equip Karn, but most of his work can be done immediately when he comes into play. It doesn't seem like Darksteel Plate is that big an upgrade to him.

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I collect misprints and other examples of Magic's history. I'm especially interested in Alternate 4th Edition, Artist Proofs of Legends cards, and good misprints. See my buy list at MOTL if you have anything like that.


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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] Karn, Silver Golem - Competitive
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-16 4:55 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-04 11:08 pm
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The reason I picked Phyrexian Furnace over Tormod's/Relic is because it is reusable and can be abused with untap effects such as Voltaic Key/Construct (Karn animated); this is nice since I have no way of returning one shot graveyard hate from my own graveyard. In addition Furnance also cycles which is nice.

Thran Tome is arguably the weakest slot in the deck. I don't mind it as a mini Fact or Fiction but I have a feeling I will end up replacing it with something else. Possibly Phyrexian Portal as it can be very good in multi player with a little politicking.

I agree with you to an extent regarding the equipment. Grieves is nice for obvious reasons and Darksteel Plate eases my mind with people dropping Wrath effects/Artifact removal specifically aimed at Karn. Not to mention indestructible artifacts are way underrated in regards to Karn animation targets; it's one of the reasons I run Ingot. Darksteel Plate is to Karn as Diplomatic Immunity is to Zur.

Edit: Thran Tome out - Tectonic Edge in.

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I for one welcome our new Robot Overlord; Karn, Silver Golem.


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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] Karn, Silver Golem - Competitive
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-17 9:16 am 
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Apologies for the double post; Gzeiger I just noted your questions regarding Sphere effects.

I can relate in that I am primarily a T1 player and have some familiarity with Workshop based control/aggro.

While one could run Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, Trinisphere, and Loadstone Golem - I will present a few reasons on why I believe they are sub par and ineffective in this format.

At maximum density I can run 4 spheres in a 100 card list to 13 spheres in a 60 card list in T1.

This presents a rather large consistency issue with drawing multiple spheres which, in my experience is needed for the effect to be of worth. An individual sphere effect acts as a Time Walk at best and for an actual lock to be formed it requires addition resources in the form of Tangle Wire, Smoke Stack, Strip effects, or a quick aggro burst to capitalize on the time gained. Considering limitations placed on the number of proper lock components the consistency issue is compounded. Sphere effects fail to be relevant in a format where we lack the proper proportion of sphere to lock. In addition opponents start with 40 life making quick aggro capitalization (with this list) impossible.

On top of that spheres are underwhelming on paper due to the nature of EDH. Adding one mana to the total cost of a spell is rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things. On the flip side this is why, arguably, Helm of Awaking is a week slot.

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I for one welcome our new Robot Overlord; Karn, Silver Golem.


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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] [Competitive] - Karn, Silver Golem
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 10:27 am 
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I need to make room for Steel Hellkite and Karn, the Released. Having trouble deciding what to cut. Any ideas?

:facepalm:

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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] [Competitive] - Karn, Silver Golem
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 10:42 am 
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Joined: 2011-Apr-13 2:53 am
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
I don't know what your experience with Lux Cannon is, but it just seems too slow. Also, if I were to use it, I know it'd get destroyed or rfg'd right after tapping it for the 3rd counter. If you had some proliferate in there it might be more viable...

Also, you have quite a bit of group draw power. Again, not sure what your experience with it is, but it seems like allowing your opponents to draw as much as you (or more, with Well of Knowledge) is a bad idea.

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Please disregard the above post. I am probably tired/sick/brain damaged from inhaling metal fumes and dust at work.

Current Decks
Rith, the Awakener (Formerly Asmira, Holy Avenger and Tolsimir Wolfblood)
Sharuum the Hegemon (WIP) (Formerly Teysa, Orzhov Scion)
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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] [Competitive] - Karn, Silver Golem
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 10:57 am 
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Mooney wrote:
I don't know what your experience with Lux Cannon is, but it just seems too slow. Also, if I were to use it, I know it'd get destroyed or rfg'd right after tapping it for the 3rd counter. If you had some proliferate in there it might be more viable...

Also, you have quite a bit of group draw power. Again, not sure what your experience with it is, but it seems like allowing your opponents to draw as much as you (or more, with Well of Knowledge) is a bad idea.


Lux Cannon seems like a decent choice for replacement with Steel Hellkite; to be honest I haven't been able to play with it much. Ideally it's interaction with untap effects speeds it up significantly.

Well of Knowledge is really good. Due to the amount of mana this deck can produce I'm typically drawing many more cards than my opponents. As a prison deck opponents most likely have better things to spend their mana on or just can't period making Well less of a liability.

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I for one welcome our new Robot Overlord; Karn, Silver Golem.


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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] [Competitive] - Karn, Silver Golem
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 11:10 am 

Joined: 2010-Sep-28 8:44 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Hamilton, ON
Tower of Fortunes Can be surprisingly solid in a Karn list since you can generate so much mana. A friend at the local shop runs Karn from time to time and his list has a lot of similarities to yours, though it omits some of the most competitive plays for social contract reasons.

Lux Cannon does seem like a decent slot to remove for either the Hellkite or Karn the Released. I could see a good case for either card.

Otherwise your list looks very solid.

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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] [Competitive] - Karn, Silver Golem
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 11:26 am 
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Joined: 2011-Feb-04 11:08 pm
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I think you both bring up solid points for the removal of Lux Cannon. Steel Hellkite can act as pseudo removal but also provides a win condition necessary not to bore people to death. I think the pump ability is overlooked; due to the mana production this deck has it can end games very quickly.

I never liked Tower of Fortunes solely because activating it early game was all but impossible when I would rather be dropping some form of disruption to slow the game down or just didn't have the mana.

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I for one welcome our new Robot Overlord; Karn, Silver Golem.


Last edited by Commandant on 2011-Apr-19 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] [Competitive] - Karn, Silver Golem
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 2:03 pm 
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Location: Milwaukee, WI
I'm gonna suggest Urza's Blueprints again. You mentioned not liking the cost, but let's compare it to Tower of Fortunes:

- Blueprints comes out with 6 mana and draws you at least 1 card right away, more with untap effects like Clock of Omens and Karn/Voltaic construct. Then, if you choose to keep it around, it's 6 mana on your next turn (or you can just respond to the echo trigger by drawing a few cards, then letting it die). 12 mana over 2 turns. After that, it's free. Sure, it's only 1 at a time, but like I said, Clock of Omens makes this card a boss.

- Tower comes out at 4 mana, but cannot draw you any cards until you have 8 mana. You need 12 mana to play it and draw on the same turn. It doesn't work well with untap effects due to the 8 mana activation cost, but with no support it technically draws more cards for 12 mana in 1 turn than the blueprints do for 12 mana over 2 turns. After the third time you've activated it, though, you've spent 28 mana to draw 12 cards. Unless you've got huge or infinite mana going, that's gonna hurt a bit.

I'm not saying you shouldn't run both, but if you're going to pick just one I'd go with the blueprints.

On another note, I might suggest swapping out Pithing Needle for the new Karn. I've never even seen that card played in EDH... I'm sure it's occasionally useful for stopping commanders, but that's very situational and it only stops 1 card per deck, not as good as 4 per deck in standard.

_________________
Please disregard the above post. I am probably tired/sick/brain damaged from inhaling metal fumes and dust at work.

Current Decks
Rith, the Awakener (Formerly Asmira, Holy Avenger and Tolsimir Wolfblood)
Sharuum the Hegemon (WIP) (Formerly Teysa, Orzhov Scion)
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind


Last edited by Mooney on 2011-Apr-19 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [EDH] [Competitive] - Karn, Silver Golem
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-19 2:05 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Mooney wrote:
I'm gonna suggest Urza's Blueprints again. You mentioned not liking the cost, but let's compare it to Tower of Fortunes:

- Blueprints comes out with 6 mana and draws you at least 1 card right away, more with untap effects like Clock of Omens and Karn/Voltaic construct. Then, if you choose to keep it around, it's 6 mana on your next turn (or you can just respond to the echo trigger by drawing a few cards, then letting it die). 12 mana over 2 turns. After that, it's free. Sure, it's only 1 at a time, but like I said, Clock of Omens makes this card a boss.

- Tower comes out at 4 mana, but cannot draw you any cards until you have 8 mana. You need 12 mana to play it and draw on the same turn. It doesn't work well with untap effects due to the 8 mana activation cost, but with no support it technically draws more cards for 12 mana in 1 turn than the blueprints do for 12 mana over 2 turns. After the third time you've activated it, though, you've spent 28 mana to draw 12 cards. Unless you've got huge or infinite mana going, that's gonna hurt a bit.

I'm not saying you shouldn't run both, but if you're going to pick just one I'd go with the blueprints.


I never thought I'd EVER pick Urza's Blueprints over anything, but you've made a believer out of me!

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