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 Post subject: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-08 2:03 pm 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
Age: Drake
Location: Halifax, NS
Since I want to keep this as a dragony-themed deck, I'm trying to keep the amount of non-dragons to as low as possible.

This deck now has a lot more graveyard interaction than initially designed, staying away from mass removal, going with targeted removal instead. Scion doesn't work with cards with effects that "come into play", hence the reason for more graveyard recursion. Hopefully Wasteland alone is enough to deal with problem lands.

--Updated June--
(Ancient Hellkite-->Balefire Dragon)

General
Scion of the Ur-Dragon

Planeswalker: (1)

Creatures:
Dragons:(22)

Non-Dragons:(3)

Artifacts: (9)

Enchantments (10)

Instants: (6)

Sorceries: (6)

Lands: (42)

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More money than brains! I'm an Ash Ketchum of M:tG.
Scion, the 600$ Ur-Dragon


Last edited by spammeister on 2012-Jun-18 5:47 pm, edited 21 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-08 3:18 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-23 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
5r4I think you should take out:
Bloodchief Ascension--This doesn't seem like the right deck for it.

Switch out:
Cairn Wanderer for Two-Headed Dragon/other dragon--Dragons doesn't have varying abilities, so wanderer is not much good in a scion deck. If you have a dragon tyrant in the graveyard, it's like tyrant gets -2/-2 and loses his upkeep and firebreating, which is still cool. If tyrant is not in your graveyard, It can have, at best, flying, haste, first strike, and pro legends. Tsabo Tavoc gives first strike and pro legends, but Tsabo is much better in play than boosting the wanderer.
Konda's Banner for Crucible of Fire--Ideally, you'd put the banner on scion and pump your dudes, but if you scion-fetch a non-legendary dragon, it'll fall off. Crucible will pump those same dudes harder, regardless of what scion fetches, and R/B have a much harder time blowing it up.

Put in:
Hellkite Overlord--A must have for any scion deck.
Makeshift Mannequin and/or Necromancy--You have several EtB creatures. Instant rez practically makes them spells.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-08 4:13 pm 

Joined: 2011-Mar-03 12:40 pm
Age: Dragon
Cairn Wanderer is a dragon!

You're probably the first one I've thought was running enough land in this format. I actually think I'd cut a couple though, at least to fit Coalition Relic.

Tormod's Crypt seems just plain worse than Nihil Spellbomb. There's probably room for Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus and Phyrexian Furnace before I'd stoop to Tormod's Crypt.

Fetch lands are significantly better than dual lands once all the duals are in the deck. I'd play 20 duals, 10 fetches and some 5-color lands (where is City of Brass? and Meteor Crater will rarely help you cast Scion), plus the colorless utility lands you have.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-08 4:54 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-23 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
gzeiger wrote:
Cairn Wanderer is a dragon!

I know, but it would be better off as a real dragon that does things besides having flying and maybe haste. All it has on a real dragon is the possible benifit from non-dragon tribal pump/bonuses, which don't show up in this deck..

gzeiger wrote:
Tormod's Crypt seems just plain worse than Nihil Spellbomb. There's probably room for Spellbomb, Relic of Progenitus and Phyrexian Furnace before I'd stoop to Tormod's Crypt.

Yes to the spellbomb. No to the other two. Furnace is too slow, and relic nukes his graveyard, which is very bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-08 7:52 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
I'd like to second the Bloodchief's Ascension and Konda's Banner cuts. Konda's will fall off when Scion becomes a non-legendary (and that *will* happen). Bloodchief is a great card in decks not like this one. Firstly, you're not nickel and diming your opponents with 2 damage a turn. You'll be killing them in 5 swings, so Bloodchief's wont even be active for a significant amount of time. Secondly, you don't have a discard, board wipe, or attrition focus. Not that many cards are going to be going to the graveyard.

Additionally, some of your dragon choices are weak. Rorix Bladewing is awful. You will never fish him out with Scion (well, I guess you might EOT fish him if you're about to Patriarch's Bidding, but there are better guys for that). Skithiryx doesn't really help your strategy either (he's great in some decks, just not this one). Also, the Kamigawa Dragon Spirits aren't all that awesome, considering they have to croak to be good. So, you'll fish out your Kamigawa dragon, hit someone for 5, and then... well, that's it. Not exciting. Malfegor is similarly underwhelming. When you Patriarch's or Living Death, you're going to lose your hand, and then someone is going to follow it up with a Wrath, and you'll be in serious trouble. Outside being rezzed, Malefegor is a 6/6 blank; you can do better. There are plenty of good filler dragons out there (Draco, I'm looking at you).

In terms of dragons that you really want to run, you're missing:
Hellkite Overlord — Later in the game, after a board wipe, this is your go-to guy. You play scion, you attack (yay haste!), you pump. Better than Rorix, anyway.
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund — When you play the Patriarch's bidding, you don't want to give your buddies a chance to play Wrath of God (or really anything that isn't an 'instant'). Especially if you insist on running Malfegor at the same time. Also, very tight if there's another Scion player at the table.

Some other cards to consider:
More Reanimate, Zombify and similar — Establish a board presence. Economically. Karrthus (again) helps with this, and Hellkite Overlord is a very choice play (yay haste!).

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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-09 7:04 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
Age: Drake
Location: Halifax, NS
I do have Crucible of Fire in the deck already. I wasn't playing when the Alara block was out otherwise I would put those dragons in it.

I really didn't want Crucible of Fire to be the only pumper in the deck, I was on the fence if the Banner would fall off if Scion all of a sudden wasn't a Legendary (stupid english language), I'll defer to your call on it if I can't find anything more "official".

I put in Bloodchief Ascension because it seems to be a neat card that has a neat effect, and I don't really have any other way to gain life.

I've been staying away from Dragons that only do "pump" effects, hence no Shivan Dragon or Two-Headed Dragon

Tormod's Crypt -> Nihil Spellbomb
Cairn Wanderer -> Vorosh, the Hunter
Konda's Banner -> Whispersilk Cloak
Meteor Crater -> City of Brass
Rorix Bladewing -> Flameblast Dragon
Yosei, the Morning Star -> Dragonmaster Outcast
Malfegor -> Anger
5x SoM Lands -> 5x Onslaught Fetch lands
2b replaced when I can:
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon -> Hellkite Overlord
Ryusei, the Falling Star -> Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
Keiga, the Tide Star -> Coalition Relic

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More money than brains! I'm an Ash Ketchum of M:tG.
Scion, the 600$ Ur-Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-09 12:01 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-23 3:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sinis clearly has better eyes than I, because I failed to notice crucible, Skithiryx, and the lack of Karrthus. Treva can be pretty good for life gain in a big game. Or you can just run warhammer.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-09 12:30 pm 

Joined: 2010-Apr-02 6:44 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Flyover Country, United States
You are running ALOT of dragons that just aren't very good in Scion because they keep you from running actual good cards. Just because it is a "dragon" doesn't mean you need to run it. I would cut at least:

Ancient Hellkite
Flameblast Dragon
Intet, the dreamer
Knollspine dragon
Mordant Dragon
Ryusei, the Falling Star
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
Thunder Dragon
Vorosh, the Hunter

I would ADD:
Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund (he gives all of your dragons haste and has it himself meaning he great when reanimated, and a viable Scion Target the turn you summon him so he can attack)
Hellkite Overlord Haste and Pumpable, he is a GREAT Scion Target
Yosei, the morning Star Much like Keiga you run him to punish someone for killing Scion. Is someone about to wrath? fetch up Yosei and lock him down for a turn. It should also be pointed out that if you are running Sac outlets, which you NEED to do, Scion in to Yosei becomes a great play, and does Sneak attack yosei. These same argument apply to the next dragon:
Keiga, the Tide star I am sorry, were you about to Terminate my Scion or otherwise kill it? Were you about to wrath with Ulamog/ Darksteel Colossus/ Blightsteel Colossus on the table? IN response Scion becomes Keiga,...Gimme!

I would DEFINITELY ADD the following one way or the other:
Survival of the fittest
Mirari's wake Your deck is VERY mana hungry. feed it
Primeval titan Again with the being mana hungry thing.
genesis any way to get your dragons or other creatures back out of the yard is good
Eternal witness

Volrath's stronghold is great but you also need sac outlets like Miren, the moaning well, and High market/ Diamond Valley. you also NEED to be playing Boseiju, it is a house against blue/ control decks since you often only need to resolve 2 spells successfully against them: Your General, and a patriarch's bidding/ Living death.

You need more ways to draw as well, and some mass removal/ Sweepers.
I would also play fetches if I were you, and don't overlook Krosan verge the card is actually really, really good. Play Reflecting Pool and Exotic orchard as well.

Hope that helps. You can also troll around for a few other Scion threads for Ideas. Mine is here if it helps: http://forum.mtgcommander.net/Forum/vie ... =16&t=7114

_________________
My $.10

Generals:

Sharuum, the Hegemon (Currently Foiling)
Scion of the Ur-Dragon (currently Foiling)
Karn, Silver Golem
Hazezon Tamar
Zur the Enchanter
Riku of Two Reflections
Very-nearly-Creatureless Sliver Queen PLaneswalkers (under Construction)
Progenitus - Creatures are for the Weak Retired.
Child of Alara: Lich Combo (under construction)


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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-10 10:07 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
Age: Drake
Location: Halifax, NS
So Scion is a copy of somthing, then hits the graveyard? Yosei or Keiga wouldn't work, since the Commander wouldn't go to the graveyard unless I actually wanted it to:
Quote:
"This is a replacement effect; the creature never goes to the graveyard and will not trigger such abilities."
Unless it's supposed to be a desperation move.

As for sac outlets, I figure Scion is the best way to move creatures to the graveyard? I have Reflecting Pool and Exotic Orchard in my deck (did you look?).

I wanted to keep this as a dragon heavy theme, and stay away from mass removal. I am trying to have dragons that I can pull out to do tricks like sweeping and targeted destruction.

Mordant Dragon -> Survival of the Fittest
Gemstone Mine -> Boseiju

most of the cards you spoke of I don't have and/or I am trying to get.

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More money than brains! I'm an Ash Ketchum of M:tG.
Scion, the 600$ Ur-Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-10 4:49 pm 

Joined: 2011-Mar-03 12:40 pm
Age: Dragon
If it's going to be a theme deck you can't really skip Shivan Dragon :)

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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-10 9:17 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-16 5:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Toronto, ON
After Courtland's case for Yosei, I'd probably play him for the reasons posted. Adding my own thoughts:
Yosei's case is the least narrow. While Ryusei and Keiga are only really good in response to spot removal, Yosei can handle spot removal well (after you deflected the first spot removal with Quicksilver Dragon, natch) and can negate the equalization in board presence that a board wipe player is hoping to find. Keiga is only really good if your opponent has an indestructible creature in the presence of a wipe, and Ryusei is even more limited than that. Even if your opponent is holding an indestructible, Yosei can cover that too, at least temporarily. Jugan isn't even worth mentioning. Kokusho wouldn't even be that great a play if he were legal.

So, yeah. I take back what I said about Kamigawa dragons in Scion, and revise my opinion to include and be limited to non-Yosei Kamigawa dragons.

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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-11 5:34 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
Age: Drake
Location: Halifax, NS
Hopefully the chances of me tutoring for a Lightning Greaves also protects Scion from that extra jolt of hate.

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Scion, the 600$ Ur-Dragon


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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-11 11:15 am 

Joined: 2010-Apr-02 6:44 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Flyover Country, United States
spammeister wrote:
So Scion is a copy of somthing, then hits the graveyard? Yosei or Keiga wouldn't work, since the Commander wouldn't go to the graveyard unless I actually wanted it to:
[As for sac outlets, I figure Scion is the best way to move creatures to the graveyard? I have Reflecting Pool and Exotic Orchard in my deck (did you look?).

I wanted to keep this as a dragon heavy theme, and stay away from mass removal. I am trying to have dragons that I can pull out to do tricks like sweeping and targeted destruction.


Letting Scion go to the yard should, literally NEVER really be a problem for a scion deck. you are playing an Animator deck for god's sake, plus you are running volrath's stronghold. If you run lots of other good recursion like Genesis, Phyrexian Reclamation, or Oversold Cemetary, you can get him back at will so trading the cost of returning him to your hand is EASILY worth it to pseudo-time-walk/ steal your opponents best critter. These sorts of cards are also massively important since you ARE running Sneak attack.

FYI, Kokusho would be ABSOLUTELY INSANE in Scion and would literally be THE FIRST auto-include dragon in the deck after your general. Being able to make EVERYONE pay for a board sweep is seriously not to be underestimated in power, especially since Scion decks often times are rather life-hungry beasts (dragons, go figure)

You want Sac outlets for a few reasons. 1. would you rather a.) Sac Scion to something like Miren/ High market, or b.) Let your opponent Condemn/ Hallowed Burial him? 2. Would you rather a. Miren that dragon you just Sneak Attacked and gain life after attacking or b. Let it go to yard and get nothing? 3. Would you rather a. Use a Sac outlet or b. let ANY of your dragons eat a Swords to Plowshares/ Path to Exile.

And thats without even mentioning theft effects. Sac outlets are ALWAYS important and just about EVERY commander deck should be running at least 2.

On the Sweeping-Dragons front: Scourge of Kher Ridges is your friend. Say hi.

I also have a confession about Scion: I always leave him in play before I cast a living death, especially If I have Boseijud the spell. Why you ask? because Bladewing the risen will ALWAYS bring him back based on resolution order, and I will more or less ALWAYS dump Bladwing into the bin in response to the Living death (unless he is already there of course). Seriously, it is easy to get Scion Back from the yard, don't sweat it.

_________________
My $.10

Generals:

Sharuum, the Hegemon (Currently Foiling)
Scion of the Ur-Dragon (currently Foiling)
Karn, Silver Golem
Hazezon Tamar
Zur the Enchanter
Riku of Two Reflections
Very-nearly-Creatureless Sliver Queen PLaneswalkers (under Construction)
Progenitus - Creatures are for the Weak Retired.
Child of Alara: Lich Combo (under construction)


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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-11 12:24 pm 

Joined: 2010-Apr-02 6:44 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Flyover Country, United States
Since you are running the Duals/ Shocks/ fetches spread you should also REALLY consider running Emeria the Sky Ruin and either Crucible of Worlds or Life from the loam (to recycle your fetches. Getting Emeria Active can be back-breaking since its hard for most decks to deal with effectively.

_________________
My $.10

Generals:

Sharuum, the Hegemon (Currently Foiling)
Scion of the Ur-Dragon (currently Foiling)
Karn, Silver Golem
Hazezon Tamar
Zur the Enchanter
Riku of Two Reflections
Very-nearly-Creatureless Sliver Queen PLaneswalkers (under Construction)
Progenitus - Creatures are for the Weak Retired.
Child of Alara: Lich Combo (under construction)


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 Post subject: Re: Scion, The six-hundred dollar Ur-Dragon
AgePosted: 2011-Apr-12 4:05 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-02 10:28 am
Age: Drake
Location: Halifax, NS
Courtland wrote:
If you run lots of other good recursion like Genesis, Phyrexian Reclamation, or Oversold Cemetery...These sorts of cards are also massively important since you ARE running Sneak attack.

I really don't know if I want to take it from a deck that does lots of stuff to deck based around graveyard shenanigans. I don't currently have a Genesis, but I'd have to see what stuff to start replacing...It's a 5 colour deck, and I'd like to be able to use 5 colours.

Courtland wrote:
FYI, Kokusho would be ABSOLUTELY INSANE in Scion and would literally be THE FIRST auto-include dragon in the deck after your general.

Please see RC on current status of Kokusho (I would like to have him in a deck, but I know how much douchebaggery he involves)...

Courtland wrote:
You want Sac outlets for a few reasons. 1. would you rather a.) Sac Scion to something like Miren/ High market, or b.) Let your opponent Condemn/ Hallowed Burial him?

At this point it looks like I'm going to be getting rid of all the 5 color fixer lands, I'll have to contemplate to go balls out on sac lands (and I have Miren and High Market)

Courtland wrote:
On the Sweeping-Dragons front: Scourge of Kher Ridges is your friend. Say hi.

Don't have any Future Sight, am trying to get it, at least Scourge...

_________________
More money than brains! I'm an Ash Ketchum of M:tG.
Scion, the 600$ Ur-Dragon


Last edited by spammeister on 2011-Apr-12 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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