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 Post subject: The Zero Card Combo (Momir Vig)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-29 4:11 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Nov-09 8:55 pm
Age: Drake
Hey everyone!

This deck is so named because the entire combo is easily accessible via your general, which essentially always starts in your hand. Imagine if Niv-Mizzet could actually tutor up Ophidian's Eye himself. Yikes!

This brew has been under development since last July, so I thought I'd share some ideas with you guys. You can find the previous (and ongoing) discussion in this thread:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=264965

General (1)
1 Momir Vig, Simic Visionary

Mana Dudes (23)
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Arbor Elf
1 Boreal Druid
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Heritage Druid
1 Nettle Sentinel
1 Quirion Elves
1 Quirion Explorer
1 Leaf Gilder
1 Heart Warden
1 Bloom Tender
1 Devoted Druid
1 Priest of Titania
1 Seeker of Skybreak
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Fyndhorn Elder
1 Greenweaver Druid
1 Elvish Harbinger
1 Wirewood Channeler

Utility Dudes (19)
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Orochi Leafcaller
1 Elvish Visionary
1 Multani's Acolyte
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Eternal Witness
1 Drift of Phantasms
1 Mystic Snake
1 Lys Alana Huntmaster
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Skyshroud Poacher
1 Sages of the Anima
1 Magus of the Future
1 Primordial Sage
1 Regal Force
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Terastodon

Noncreature Combo Pieces (10)
1 Glimpse of Nature
1 Mind Bend
1 Whim of Volrath
1 Alter Reality
1 Concordant Crossroads
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Thousand-Year Elixir
1 Intruder Alarm
1 Cloudstone Curio
1 Umbral Mantle

Noncreature Support (15)
1 Vitalize
1 Mobilize
1 Crop Rotation
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Pact of Negation
1 Timetwister
1 Food Chain
1 Natural Order

Mana (32)
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Chrome Mox
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
1 Breeding Pool
1 Tropical Island
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Flooded Grove
1 City of Brass
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Wirewood Lodge
1 Dryad Arbor
8 Forest
6 Island

The interactions and exceptions are numerous, but this is the general plan:

Step 1. Ramp
Power out lots of mana dorks. You're playing all of them that are any good, and some of them that aren't.

Step 2. Activate Vig
If you have one, use a Mind Bend effect to hack Vig's second ability to "green." This tacks on a free Eladamri's Call to each green creature you play. Alternatively, you can use Glimpse of Nature or use Vig to tutor up Primordial Sage/Magus of the Future and get the same result.

Step 3. Win the Game
With Vig active, you can usually win immediately. An example Vig chain:
Heritage Druid --> Nettle Sentinel --> (more 1cc guys) --> Lys Alana Huntmaster --> (more guys) --> Orochi Leafcaller --> Drift of Phantasms, transmute for Cloudstone Curio, go infinite. Tidespout Tyrant is another possible ending. You get occasional turn 4 kills, clockwork turn 5 kills, and turn 6 at the latest unless you kept a terrible opener. Depending on the interest, I'll go more in detail on these permutations later (or not).

Even if it's still a little fragile, the deck is quite fast and unbelievably consistent. I'd love to hear any thoughts or suggestions you may have! However, please do not come in here to post any of the following:
"Vig sucks" (yeah right)
"Combo is unfun" (heard it all before, derails the thread)
"d0su is a douchebag" (even if it's true :wink:)
etc. etc.

Thanks for reading!

_________________
R Squee, Goblin Nabob -- Mono-R Burn The World
B/W Ghost Council of Orzhova -- Casual Turbo Ghost
G/W Selvala, Explorer Returned -- Parley Elves Wombo Combo
W/U/B/R/G Child of Alara -- "Pauper" Dreamcrusher


Last edited by d0su on 2011-Mar-29 4:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Zero Card Combo (Momir Vig)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-29 4:51 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-20 8:16 pm
Age: Dragon
I suggested it on MTGSal, and I'll suggest it here: Dryad Arbor needs to be in here. It provides near infinite utility.

You can fetch it with Fetchlands, it turns GSZ into a Llanowar Elf, it can be clamped or sacrificed to Natural Order, does tricks with Cloudstone Curio, and is just an all around powerful effect to have available to you.

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Author of The Arcane Laboratory and occasional guest host of Commandercast.


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 Post subject: Re: The Zero Card Combo (Momir Vig)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-29 4:52 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Nov-09 8:55 pm
Age: Drake
94teen wrote:
I suggested it on MTGSal, and I'll suggest it here: Dryad Arbor needs to be in here. It provides near infinite utility.

You can fetch it with Fetchlands, it turns GSZ into a Llanowar Elf, it can be clamped or sacrificed to Natural Order, does tricks with Cloudstone Curio, and is just an all around powerful effect to have available to you.


Done. I kind of forgot about the card. I do hope the summoning sickness won't be an issue, but it's just one "comes-into-play-tapped" land, so I don't think it'll be too bad...

_________________
R Squee, Goblin Nabob -- Mono-R Burn The World
B/W Ghost Council of Orzhova -- Casual Turbo Ghost
G/W Selvala, Explorer Returned -- Parley Elves Wombo Combo
W/U/B/R/G Child of Alara -- "Pauper" Dreamcrusher


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 Post subject: Re: The Zero Card Combo (Momir Vig)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-29 8:23 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jun-13 2:13 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Memphis, TN
If your group is combo-friendly, I assume you all play disruption. How do you ever manage to stick Vig? I see two counterspells, no shroud boots, no Teferi, or any serious attempt to protect your combo at all.

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CR 905.1. Haters gonna hate. It's not a may ability.
Were you blown away by the insight and hilarity of this post? Damn. Try CommanderCast anyway!


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 Post subject: Re: The Zero Card Combo (Momir Vig)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-29 8:46 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-20 8:16 pm
Age: Dragon
If you dilute the engine too much, you become much more likely to fizzle, or not draw enough pieces to go off early. If you can't go off early, then not only are you open to disruption, but to wraths and other more standard forms of interaction. Generally, your plan is probably to go off as quickly as possible to limit opportunities for interaction. If it's early enough in the game, people are tapping out to draw cards and ramp their lands, so you can combo with impunity.

Case in point, PT Berlin. Most of the elf decks there ran 3ish thoughtseizes as disruption if any at all. You go off so fast that adding disruption is more of a liability than anything else.


Besides, the deck isn't totally reliant on Vig, Vig is just the most readily available combo piece. You've got other options like Glimpse and Primordial Sage. Most elf combo decks run limited disruption because it's counterproductive. Your engine is hard enough to disrupt since you've got multiple ways to put together both mana and card drawing engines, and enough tutors to find whatever pieces your missing with reasonable consistency. You can just go off through most relevant disruption unless everyone at the table is playing dedicated combo hate.

Further, what disruption are you going to run? Dispel? Spell Pierce? Those are just about the only counters I can see adding, and it seems pretty difficult to cast them when you're also trying to cast Vig and go off in the same turn. Force of Will and Misdirection seem pretty awful. Maybe City of Solitude and Dosan?


Really, I think the deck's a bit of a glass cannon to show people that combo is a thing, and that they can't focus on the mid to late game as much as they want to, they've got to have some mechanism of dealing with brokenness early in the game.


Speaking of PT Berlin, how would Chord of Calling be? It might justify running Wirewood Hivemaster, and Hivemaster might justify Earthcraft, maybe over Food Chain.

Is Sylvan Messenger worth a slot?

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Author of The Arcane Laboratory and occasional guest host of Commandercast.


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 Post subject: Re: The Zero Card Combo (Momir Vig)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-30 8:52 am 
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Joined: 2009-Nov-09 8:55 pm
Age: Drake
Fugu wrote:
If your group is combo-friendly, I assume you all play disruption. How do you ever manage to stick Vig? I see two counterspells, no shroud boots, no Teferi, or any serious attempt to protect your combo at all.


Carlos answered it for the most part, but I wanted to touch on a few other points:

1. I do play shroud boots. :)
2. I took out Teferi because it was clunky and not useful most of the time.
3. I play this deck online, not IRL, so the surprise factor is huge. You can untap with a few mana elves and the table will never get another turn.
4. To offset the "glass cannon" weakness of the deck, we have spent a lot of time adding non-Vig related wincons and backup plans. Intruder Alarm, Umbral Mantle, Cloudstone Curio, Natural Order, Glimpse of Nature + Sages of the Anima, Magus of the Future + Top, and (soon) Ezuri, Renegade Leader are just as potent if Vig isn't around.

In the other thread, the idea came up to cut a lot of the dedicated combo pieces (Mind Bend and such) and fill those slots with countermagic, relying completely on Momir Vig to tutor for Primordial Sage or Magus of the Future for the combo kill. However, this deck does need a critical mass of little green dudes for the Heritage Druid combo to function, which creates some awkward tension if we're trying to play a lot of control elements. I think the best approach is to streamline the strategy as much as possible, have some reliable backup plans, and throw in disruption/protection into the remaining slots. It just seems more practical to outrace the table instead of trying to fend them all off once they've gotten off the ground.

94teen wrote:
Speaking of PT Berlin, how would Chord of Calling be? It might justify running Wirewood Hivemaster, and Hivemaster might justify Earthcraft, maybe over Food Chain.

Is Sylvan Messenger worth a slot?


I know Sylvan Messenger isn't worth it; he was in the original build and got cut from the list a few months ago because he was too slow.

Chord of Calling sounds interesting. It's worth checking out IMO. I just cut Worldly Tutor from the list, but Chord is so much different it's definitely worth testing.

Since Gaka suggested it yesterday, I haven't gotten a chance to play Food Chain yet, so I don't know how to evaluate it. Earthcraft got cut from the list back in January, but it's just sooo good in its own right... it and Worldly Tutor are definitely on the short list for inclusion. I was disappointed with Wirewood Hivemaster 95% of the time, though; Lys Alana Huntmaster is better and Hivemaster for value is just too fair.

The Short List for Inclusion:
Ezuri, Renegade Leader/Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
Worldly Tutor
Chord of Calling
Earthcraft
Glamerdye
Spell Pierce

_________________
R Squee, Goblin Nabob -- Mono-R Burn The World
B/W Ghost Council of Orzhova -- Casual Turbo Ghost
G/W Selvala, Explorer Returned -- Parley Elves Wombo Combo
W/U/B/R/G Child of Alara -- "Pauper" Dreamcrusher


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 Post subject: Re: The Zero Card Combo (Momir Vig)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-30 8:57 am 
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Play Dosan and Xantid swarm, imo.


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 Post subject: Re: The Zero Card Combo (Momir Vig)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-30 9:45 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-20 8:16 pm
Age: Dragon
Dosan is the most justifiable of these in my opinion, since it's easily tutored up and doesn't have summoning sickness.

Mind's Desire just for rubbing it in?


Hivemaster is DEFINITELY only worth it if you're running both Chord of Calling AND Earthcraft/Food Chain.

_________________
Author of The Arcane Laboratory and occasional guest host of Commandercast.


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 Post subject: Re: The Zero Card Combo (Momir Vig)
AgePosted: 2012-Dec-12 8:48 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-02 12:02 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Croatia,Zagreb
And again,d0su made a fun deck!

(Hy,d0su,long time no hear).

I have 2 Momir Vig decks. The version with foil general is a classical toolbox and I'm in process of making some sort of elf-wizard tribal,so I've dropped by to look for some cards.

You have much more than few nice ones here. It seems to be well tuned up so unfortunately I don't really have no suggestions,just congratulations. Maybe against control environment you could use Alchemist's Refuge (cannot link it with my cellphone,sorry) that land is awesome in my toolbox build because it counts as Teferi no 2,but as I say,it's a maybe.

P.S. Sorry for diggin' this from the past...

_________________
I HATE M10!...rules,not the cards... GENERALS : Ambassador Laquatus ; Sisters of Stone Death ; Sygg,River Cutthroat ; Merieke Ri Berit ; Teneb the Harvester ; Momir Vig,Simic Visionary ; Niv-Mizzet,the Firemind ; Saffi Eriksdotter ; ...the list shall go on and on


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