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 Post subject: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-15 8:07 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-12 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
EDIT: Decklist Update as of 3/17/2011
EDIT2: Decklist Update as of 3/22/2011

The Decklist is currently as follows, although, like anything, it is still a work in progress. The design is meant to be, as the title suggests, an atypical Arcum build, shying away from the typical annoying combos (I'm looking at you MycoForgeDisk), in favor of a build that can change its plan at the drop of a hat. For example, I've had entire games play out where I only ever used Arcum 1 time (or even didn't summon him at all in rare cases). The current list has not been tested much, but past incarnations used such things as the Mirrorworks+Tinker for Blightsteel w/ 2 extra for a copy+Sculpting Steel w/ 2 extra for a copy (i.e. 4 Blightsteel Colossi in a single turn) not to win games, but to get a laugh as people panicked for answers to it. (They found answers, and I got focused to death, but it was a lot of fun trying to hold out against them all. lol) Currently, the problem with the deck lies mostly with my play of the deck (forgetting to play Arcum for example. XD) I'd like to hone the deck to be a more aggro+combo deck. I'm tired of being milled to death and killed by a combination of bs plays designed to kill me simply because a greater serpent lurks unnoticed in the group, despite everyone having seen other decks 1-shot the game. Anyways, here's the list, any feedback is welcome, although constructive is preferred.

General:
Arcum Dagsson

Creatures
Arcbound Crusher
Arcbound Worker
Blightsteel Colossus
Draining Whelk
Karn, Silver Golem
Kuldotha Forgemaster
Memnarch
Memnite
Ornithopter
Myr Retriever
Phyrexian Walker
Thopter Assembly
Trinket Mage
Triskelavus
Vedalken Engineer

Instants/Sorceries
Acquire
Boomerang
Call to Mind
Cancel
Commandeer
Counterspell
Deprive
Evacuation
Foil
Hinder
Mana Short
Mindbreak Trap
Prosperity
Reminisce
Rewind
Rite of Replication
Spell Burst
Stoic Rebuttal
Telemin Performance
Time Stop
Tinker
Twincast
Wipe Away


Artifacts
Basalt Monolith]/card]
[card]Clock of Omens

Contagion Engine
Darksteel Forge
Dreamstone Hedron
Elixir of Immortality
Everflowing Chalice
Extraplanar Lens
Isochron Scepter
Mirrorworks
Mox Opal
Mycosynth Lattice
Nuisance Engine
Sculpting Steel
Sensei's Divining Top
Spellbook
Temple Bell
Thought Prison
Umbra Mantle
Vedalken Orrery
Voltaic Key


Planeswalkers
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Tezzeret the Seeker

Enchantments
Archmage Ascension
Future Sight
Inexorable Tide
Rhystic Study
Take Possession

Lands
23 Island
Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Dread Statuary
Halimar Depths
Mishra's Factory
Mystifying Maze
Seat of the Synod
Stalking Stones
Tectonic Edge
Urza's Factory
Vesuva


Thoughts?


Last edited by Hassurunous on 2011-Mar-22 7:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 1:50 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-14 8:46 am
Age: Wyvern
Land count is far too low, ~10 more and you'll be happy.

Tinker is banned, although your group might let you play it.

Arcbound Worker, Memnite, Ornithopter, Phyrexian Walker and Spire Golem are next to useless in EDH, even as Arcum fodder. Cut them for some good utility artifacts you can use both with and without your general.

General with an important tap ability but no Lightning Greaves or Thousand-Year Elixir?

Cancel, Boomerang, Mana Short, Reminisce, Wipe Away, Deprive and Disperse are all sub-par cards in EDH. They're one-shot, single-target card disadvantage with no big effect.
Look for Evacuation, Kederekt Leviathan, Capsize and friends, Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus, Cryptic Command, Pact of Negation, Remand and such instead.

Fix these basic things and the deck will perform much better. Land count is probably the thing number one, as 29 just isn't enough.
Good luck with the deck. :)

_________________
Current decks:
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon - Pure combo
WUB Merieke ri Berit - Reanimator control
WUG Rafiq of the Many - Has swordz.
BG Glissa, the Traitor - Rattlesnake

WIP:
Kaalia of the Vast - Just beat it
The Mimeoplasm - All eggs in one basket


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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 2:10 am 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-12 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
As far as the land count goes, my group swears that 27-30 land is the sweet spot, and so far I've had too much mana if anything. I've considered adding more land, as not having at least a third of the deck as land feels strange, but it seems to be working. The artifact dorks are literally Arcum fodder, and before I added them in I was having to wait several turns before I could even play Arcum, as there was nothing to sacrifice. The worker especially comes in handy, even if I draw him late, as I can proliferate and throw his counters around. I don't own a Lightning Greaves or Thousand-Year Elixir, or, trust me, they'd be in here. The deck was built using cards I currently have, though since its original manifestation I have acquired many things for it (such as Karn, Orrery, Memnarch, and others). I'm not a huge fan of Pact of Negation and especially don't like Remand, but the Crypt, the Relic, and Evacuation are within my reach. Leviathan would kind of screw me over, as I wouldn't be able to play it until after I've been able to get out Mirrorworks shenanigans or other things, and playing it after those would clear my field too.

My group allows tinker because nothing you can tinker for doesn't have an answer to it, and, last I checked, I didn't think it was banned, I just thought it was discouraged, same way Protean Hulk is.

I'm using Voltaic Key and Clock of Omens, in conjunction with Mycosynth Lattice, as untap engines, which become so much more effective when I can play them, copy with Mirrorworks, bounce with boomerang on isochron, and play again, making another copy, rinse and repeat for any permanent.

Not trying to belittle your feedback, it's just that some of it is out of my reach, and some of it makes the deck feel very unfriendly. Evacuation, for example, would be highly annoying, even towards myself, as I rely heavily on creatures, though it has found a place several times on my list.


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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 3:49 am 

Joined: 2010-Nov-14 8:46 am
Age: Wyvern
Commonly established opinion is that around 40 lands/mana sources are enough. With ~30 lands you won't be constantly hitting the fourth turn land drop (only ~43% chance) and fifth is already really unprobable (~21% !). In a format where you want to curve up to CMC 6+ that won't be enough.
P(at least four lands on turn four)
= P(at least four lands in top 11 cards)
= 1 - P(zero, one, two or three lands in top 11)
= 1 - [ P(no lands) + P(one land) + P(two lands) + P(three lands) ]
= 1 - { [ (11C0) * (3/10)^0 * (7/10)^11 ] + [ (11C1) * (3/10) * (7/10)^10 ] + [ (11C2) * (3/10)^2 * (7/10)^9 ] + [ (11C3) * (3/10)^3 * (7/10)^8 ]
= 1 - (0.01977326743) - (0.09321683217...) - (0.1997503547...) - (0.2568218846)
= 0.43043...
≈ 43%

and so on:
P(at least five lands on turn five)
= P(at least four lands on turn four) - P(four lands in top 11 cards)
= 0.45021... - [ (11C4) * (3/10)^4 * (7/10)^7 ]
= 0.21007...
≈ 21%

Notes:
For sake of simplicity I used fixed land percentage (30/100 = 3/10). It changes so little that it shouldn't be necessary to count exact value.
And yeah, I was bored. :P

EDIT: Spotted a mistake, new results should now be more accurate. (43% and 21%, not 45% and 23%)


Those artifacts are Arcum fodder, but why can't you play useful fodder? There are tons of cheap artifacts of at least some use. Mana stones both ramp him out and act as fodder, top-deck manipulators can see some activations before being eaten, GY hate cards have secondary role if needed.
You get the idea. Why play fodder when you can play useful cards which can also replace that fodder when needed?

Pact is really good whenever you want to tap out for a big threat. Remand is debatable but I personally like it much.

Kederekt Leviathan and Evacuation are good reset buttons when things get out of hand. Nearly every deck needs those, unless they plan to be faster than anyone else. Cast them after your Mirrorworks shenanigans are already answered and someone else has big presence on board.

There isn't an official banned list for EDH, but the one you mentioned is treated practically like that.

Keep Boomerang/Disperse for the combo, but my comments on cards like Cancel, Mana Short, Wipe Away and such still stands. Unless you combo them some way they are pure card disadvantage in multiplayer.

And no worries, it is good to debate about things. I wonder, though, what you're meaning with unfriendly. A few board sweepers are just good for the game.

EDIT
I did a small mistake in my maths section: forgot to count in the possibility of zero lands. Fixed now.

_________________
Current decks:
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon - Pure combo
WUB Merieke ri Berit - Reanimator control
WUG Rafiq of the Many - Has swordz.
BG Glissa, the Traitor - Rattlesnake

WIP:
Kaalia of the Vast - Just beat it
The Mimeoplasm - All eggs in one basket


Last edited by Kolmastoista on 2011-Mar-17 12:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 11:57 am 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-12 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
First of all, I greatly respect the "maths" you've presented. I've been notorious in several games (namely, Ragnarok Online) for using math to optimize performance, so your mathematical approach really makes sense to me, although the math is kind of confusing (I'm not sure what you've done in some of the substitutions and the variables, 11C2 for example).

As for Arcum fodder, you have to keep in mind that Arcum has to sacrifice an artifact creature, not just an artifact. I could use Tezzeret's ability or March of the Machines to make them creatures, but that requires more cards.

I would love to get a hand on a Pact, but I don't know but 1 or 2 people who have one. I'd prefer Force of Will, which I almost had the other day, but I understand what you are saying. I can see the use for Remand, especially from a political standpoint.

I might have to get my hands on a leviathan, but I'm still wary about sweeping ALL PERMANENTS (including my artifacts and such), which could set me far behind. As for evacuation, I'm going to try to find a spot for it, although putting creatures into their hands would only be stalling. I'd rather exile them, but I don't think blue has that option (unless I'm forgetting something).

Cancel, Mana Short, and Wipe Away (which has Split Second, important in a group with lots of blue), are going to have to stay though. Cancel is a hard counter, always good to have, though I'd take it out for Force of Will or Pact. Mana Short has allowed me to stop combos and near-death experiences from escalating several times (lol), though I can see where it would come out. I'd like to find a way to use it more than once, as it would be very good then.

When I said unfriendly, I just meant that having 18 board sweepers go off every round is rather annoying, though Evacuation is very low on the annoyance totem since they don't actually go away. I play with a group, for example, where Damnation was cast 5 times (between 3 people), Wrath of God was cast 3 times, Evacuation was played once, and about a dozen other sweeps happened, all in a 2 hour, 7-man game. It was annoying to say the least. I see the merit of it, I just don't want people to get tired of playing EDH just because people sweep the board every time there is the least bit of a scare on the board.


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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 12:41 pm 

Joined: 2010-Nov-14 8:46 am
Age: Wyvern
Oh, you're right about Arcum. I completely missed the creature part of the ability. Sorry for the hassle.

11C2, 2-combinations of 11. With the simplified land/nonland ratio I was able to just use binom probability to count the approximate values.

Cancel for Dissipate, at least? Minor upgrade, but a very relevant one in EDH.
Do you really need both Mana Short and Time Stop as panic buttons? If you really have use for both, then it is fine, but it seems odd for me to dedicate two slots in a deck just for that kind of turn-screwing cards.
Wipe Away feels a bit too small of an effect for me, but if you get value out of it, then you probably should play it. It just seemed like Unsummon in EDH deck for me.

I understand where you're coming from with annoyance in too many sweepers, but I still think most decks should have at least one or two of them. It is stupid when every threat is answered by Wrath, but there are situations where they are needed, too.

_________________
Current decks:
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon - Pure combo
WUB Merieke ri Berit - Reanimator control
WUG Rafiq of the Many - Has swordz.
BG Glissa, the Traitor - Rattlesnake

WIP:
Kaalia of the Vast - Just beat it
The Mimeoplasm - All eggs in one basket


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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 1:20 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-12 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
As for your maths, I am intrigued now, as I have not studied binom probability, though I looked it up and your math makes more sense now.

Dissipate would be a great addition, and if I see one I will snatch it up.

Wipe Away is good because it says any permanent, including creatures, artifacts, lands...etc.

I'm adding Evacuation soon, I just have to think of what to take out. Although I'd prefer to destroy the creatures rather than return them to their hands, I can see the merit of at least having some way to stall.

I would love to have more useful Arcum fodder though. Some of them feel lackluster. I've thought of using Shield Sphere (it's free) and other affinity stuff, though I've put in already what I thought was best. Any thoughts on better fodder? I've been leaning towards adding a mana myr or two, along with Genesis Chamber, Myr Turbine, and others. They seem too slow, but I like being able to sacrifice tokens without throwing away potentially useful cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 1:48 pm 
EDH Rules Committee
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Joined: 2007-Jan-05 12:58 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kolmastoista wrote:
Those artifacts are Arcum fodder, but why can't you play useful fodder? There are tons of cheap artifacts of at least some use. Mana stones both ramp him out and act as fodder, top-deck manipulators can see some activations before being eaten, GY hate cards have secondary role if needed.
You get the idea. Why play fodder when you can play useful cards which can also replace that fodder when needed?


They do have to be creatures, but Kolmastoista still has a good point. Silver Myr, Myr Retriever and Heap Doll all fill the roles that Kol mentioned. A bit more expensive, but they still hit play before Arcum, and they're all way more useful than a Phyrexian Walker.


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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 2:00 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Myr Retriever in particular is a HUGE boon to any Dagsson deck.

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The Command Zone (my MTG Blog).
Commander 2015 Set Review


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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 2:12 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-12 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
I was trying to use the 0 costs and the tokens as ways of saving them until arcum lost summoning sickness to play, then still having the mana to play anything else I had. Also, it allows me to play Mox Opal without worrying about the mana costs. Myr Retriever definitely has a place, just have to think of what to take out, but the Silver Myr takes the 2CC place, which I'd rather save for other cards, especially since, at the normal 2CC stage, I may have 3 mana available, where I could play Worker AND Counterspell, or, if I only have 2, I can drop Ornithopter AND boomerang, just as examples.

I like the Heap Doll though, I'd just have to get one, plus, it's sac effect is useless if I need to sac it to arcum.

Any Arcum fodder dork suggestions? I'd like to see any and all suggestions. Even if I don't like them now, I may find a use for them as the deck evolves.

EDIT: Looking through some cards online, I really want to get a Scarecrone for this deck.
EDIT2: Also a Filigree Sages, and I'm considering Esperzoa as another bounce card to copy my artifacts more.


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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 5:44 pm 

Joined: 2010-Nov-17 10:16 pm
Age: Wyvern
I was thinking maybe these?:
Copper Gnomes ,Emblazoned Golem,Epochrasite,Jhoira's Toolbox,Myr Mindservant and Myr Sire. Some of them are good even at mid game and they are all cheap enough to come out before arc.Perilous Myr as well

_________________
My opponent(Rhys the redeemed edh)" I genesis wave for 14, I regrowth the wave and use it again for 10, ill play eternal witness,on the wave and use it again for 8,, This game shall forever be known as the game I genesis waved 3 times in one turn". My response(Kemba, Kha Regent edh)" as the 3rd wave resolves ill play a Route, this is the game that you waved 3 times in one turn and it got you no where!".

Decks
:
Kemba, Kha Regent, the Suicide Bomber
Scion, the Ur Dragon Necromancer


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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 7:23 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-12 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
Copper Gnomes I like, though I think I'd prefer Master Transmuter.
I've considered Emblazoned Golem and Epochrasite, though I can't find my Golem and Epochrasite is if-y for me.
Jhoira's Toolbox would be nice, though, considering all of my permanents are indestructible the turn or so after Arcum hits the field, it may be wasted.
Why the Mindservant? If I had Future Sight out, it would be good, though I don't often have it out.
Myr Sire makes perfect sense, though I still think I'd prefer Ornithopter or Memnite, since I can sac them, untap arcum, sac retriever, take ornithopter, untap arcum, play ornithopter, and sac it, which I've done. Untapping Arcum is easy with Voltaic Key or Clock of Omens with Mycosynth Lattice out.

Typically, I don't play Arcum 3rd or 4th turn, but after I've got enough mana capacity to keep him out, though it becomes much more difficult the more people that are playing.


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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 11:11 pm 

Joined: 2010-Nov-17 10:16 pm
Age: Wyvern
the mind servant just because it never hurts to have the ability to shuffle you deck if your general get tucked on the bottom or even if you are getting land screwed.Runed Servitor is that to much of helping everyone?

_________________
My opponent(Rhys the redeemed edh)" I genesis wave for 14, I regrowth the wave and use it again for 10, ill play eternal witness,on the wave and use it again for 8,, This game shall forever be known as the game I genesis waved 3 times in one turn". My response(Kemba, Kha Regent edh)" as the 3rd wave resolves ill play a Route, this is the game that you waved 3 times in one turn and it got you no where!".

Decks
:
Kemba, Kha Regent, the Suicide Bomber
Scion, the Ur Dragon Necromancer


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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-16 11:19 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-12 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
I see your point with the Mindservent, it just seems kind of silly. lol

As far as helping other players, I have absolutely no problem with helping the other players, except in a 1v1 scenario. As a matter of fact, in anything more than 2 players, the more group hug I throw out there, the less likely I am to get focused to death just for playing Arcum. XD

BTW, I've edited the deck to reflect some thoughts I've seen here and had outside of here. I will change the list soon to reflect that. Thanks again everyone for your insight.

EDIT: Also, another card I'd like to add is Umbral Mantle.


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 Post subject: Re: Arcum Dagsson (No Disk, no infi combos, just shenanigans)
AgePosted: 2011-Mar-17 12:43 am 
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Joined: 2011-Mar-12 11:12 pm
Age: Wyvern
Deck List has been updated.

Update Notes:
Cuts:
-Gauntlet of Power was cut because once I use Mycosynth Lattice, it's a dead card.
-Decimator Web and Contagion Clasp were cut because, even though I intended to use poison as the primary win-con, I decided that, especially since I never even pulled it out because I felt it was in poor taste.
-Brittle Effigy was replaced with Thought Prison, because it does a lot more and it removes the threat indefinitely.
-Ancestral Vision was cut because 1) I never used it effectively and 2) It was not a very powerful card.
-Treasure Mage was cut because I found that I almost NEVER wanted one of the high cost artifacts in my hand. You can't Arcum from your hand after all, and the high cost creatures aren't very hard to get otherwise.
-Spire Golem was cut because it is a lackluster card in general.
Additions:
-Myr Retriever was added because, like you said, it is a MUST in an artifact deck like this.
-Evacuation added because mass-removal is a necessary evil, which can also, I found out, be used as positive politics if someone is resurrecting creatures from someone's graveyard.
-Dreamstone Hedron and Khalni Gem added as mana sources, which have, so far, been life-saving, especially with the addition of 4 land.
-Magewright's Stone added as a last minute deal for it's utility with Arcum.
-Thought Prison added as a preemptive strike, as well as a good damage dealing tool over time.


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