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 Post subject: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-25 3:08 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Okay, this deck idea was born out of this discussion, where ,through debate and discourse with my esteemed peers of this forum, I have developed the idea thus far.

It's a good start but I am in need of further input, if such can be rendered.

The basic idea was that I need to force my opponents into a proactive game and start attacking with their big bad guys (see the linked discussion for more background), but I have decided to abandoned my high-minded approach to this experiment, and stop trying so hard to teach my playgroup the value of using their resources, and now I just want to fuck with them.

I still want to build around Grand Melee, and similar effects that force them to attack, and do other things, but I don't really want the group-hug elements. Chaos elements are fine, so long as their more like Grand Melee type stuff, no Grip of Chaos/Confusion in the Ranks shit. This isn't a "LOL SO RANDOM!!!1!!" deck... just one that wants to force my opponents into doing shit every turn even if sitting back and passing is their first instinct.

So, without further ado, here's what I've got so far:

Oros, the Avenger - General (for the colors, obv)

Everyone attack...
Grand Melee
Fumiko, the Low Blood
Master Warcraft
War's Toll
Angel's Trumpet

... but don't attack me!
Powerstone Minefield
Lightmine Field
No Mercy
Dread
Yosei, the Morning Star
Spitemare
Academy Rector

Use it or lose it!
Uba Mask
Syphon Mind
Identity Crisis
Chandra Ablaze
Wheel of Fortune

Synergy with the "minefield" effects
Mark of Asylum
Dolmen Gate

And since I'm running THOSE:
Chain Reaction
Crater Hellion
Starstorm

Some other random shit that seems good:
Grave Pact
Insurrection
Painful Quandary
Vicious Shadows
Kaervek the Merciless
Wild Ricochet
Geth's Grimoire
Furnace of Rath
Pandemonium

And since this deck is clearly going to piss off somebody, defense:

Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Wrath of God
Damnation
Wall of Reverence
Wall of Souls
Souls of the Faultless

Obviously, this shell has a long way to go before it's a proper deck, and the early game setup is where it needs the most help. I'm aware of the multitudes of removal spells like Shriekmaw and whatnot - I'm looking for hidden gems that will serve as early defense while fitting the overall style of deck a little better.

I can fill in any holes with miscellaneous WRB good stuff - Geth, Akroma, Hellkite, whatever. I'm just looking for good "punisher" cards and similar effects that I may have overlooked/forgotten. Ideally, I'd like winning to be viable, but more than anything I just want to wreak havoc on my playgroup, who have all gotten use to building "pillow forts" and dragging out games needlessly.

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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-25 4:46 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Bumping, because I am now home from work, and beginning to put this together... input greatly appreciated!! :)

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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-26 12:27 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Not that they don't belong in a deck designed to fuck with people, but there are several card choices here that might be contrary to your goals of education. You say that you want to teach your playgroup that attacking and being proactive is good and powerful, but when they get repeatedly fucked for doing just that they're going to have some pretty strong negative correlations going on in their head there.

Powerstone Minefield and Lightmine Field are the most obvious examples of what I'm talking about. Creature attacks -> creature immediately dies -> "Attacking is baaad." War's Toll is another one that might be bad, from a different angle. Toll forces them to go all in whenever they do anything, which seems to me would just discourage anyone from doing anything. "I would attack with my dual-wielding Stoneforge Mystic, but..." OR, Good creature attacks -> a bunch of strong utility creatures die -> "Attacking is baaad."

I really like Uba Mask in this deck, though (most decks, really). It's like the perfect card for what you're going for. Something else you might want to try is gradual hand destruction. Play a Liliana Vess or a Bottomless Pit or something and make it bad to keep a few good cards in hand. Maybe try something more subtle to get the blood flowing? Having something simple like Pain Magnification on the table generates a lot of incentive to get that three damage in every turn, and it lets them do it on their own terms (and it still makes them want to attack each other instead of you).

Also, if you're keeping Lightmine Field and all those damage sweepers, play Repercussion. Unfortunately, that's another card that makes attacking bad, but it's so good!


Last edited by Ban Ki-moon on 2011-Feb-26 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-26 12:29 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-24 3:52 pm
Age: Drake
I absolutely LOVE this deck idea! I was following the original thread and would kinda like it to be group-hug-ish, but I can see why you want to do away with those elements... so, without further gibber-jabber my suggestions:

False Orders
Raging River
Lethal Vapors
Brightflame
Light of Sanction
Brawl

Those are some of the first ones that come to mind.


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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-26 1:05 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ban Ki-moon wrote:
Not that they don't belong in a deck designed to fuck with people, but there are several card choices here that might be contrary to your goals of education. You say that you want to teach your playgroup that attacking and being proactive is good and powerful, but when they get repeatedly fucked for doing just that they're going to have some pretty strong negative correlations going on in their head there.


No, no... I get that. In the OP of this thread I addressed that stating, essentially, fuck all that teaching shit, I just want to screw with them. I'm now just going to try to exploit their way of playing to my own benefit - if they learn a lesson from it, great, but mostly I just want to stick a wedge in the crack of my meta and see what happens.

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
Powerstone Minefield and Lightmine Field are the most obvious examples of what I'm talking about. Creature attacks -> creature immediately dies -> "Attacking is baaad." War's Toll is another one that might be bad, from a different angle. Toll forces them to go all in whenever they do anything, which seems to me would just discourage anyone from doing anything. "I would attack with my dual-wielding Stoneforge Mystic, but..." OR, Good creature attacks -> a bunch of strong utility creatures die -> "Attacking is baaad.


I fully agree with you. It's just that I have altered the parameters of my experiment. Originally I was going to start out strictly trying to show them the error of their ways, then gradually over time sneak in the "punisher" theme stuff like Lightmine Field. I just couldn't wait, is the problem. Once I got over myself a bit, I realized I should just go for broke and make it the way I want it right off the bat.

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
I really like Uba Mask in this deck, though (most decks, really). It's like the perfect card for what you're going for. Something else you might want to try is gradual hand destruction. Play a Liliana Vess or a Bottomless Pit or something and make it bad to keep a few good cards in hand. Maybe try something more subtle to get the blood flowing? Having something simple like Pain Magnification on the table generates a lot of incentive to get that three damage in every turn, and it lets them do it on their own terms (and it still makes them want to attack each other instead of you).


That's so funny, because I actually found a Bottomless Pit and threw it in on a whim, and then once I added it, I also threw in Geth's Grimoire and Liliana Vess. Thanks for the suggestions, but I somehow stumbled on both of those on my own! lol.

(Also for the record, Pain Magnification is a great idea for a deck like this, but I have an irrational dislike of that card. It's utterly silly of me, but I can't bring myself to play it, no matter how much it might seem like a good fit.)

Ban Ki-moon wrote:
Also, if you're keeping Lightmine Field and all those damage sweepers, play Repercussion. Unfortunately, that's another card that makes attacking bad, but it's so good!


DUDE. This is the part that makes me want to kiss you (in a totally manly hetero way!). That is SO going in. I can't believe I overlooked that. It will be absolutely slotted in the second I can figure out what to cut (there are several options at the moment).

Thanks for the suggestions!!!!!

Izzet or Izzn't wrote:
I absolutely LOVE this deck idea! I was following the original thread and would kinda like it to be group-hug-ish, but I can see why you want to do away with those elements... so, without further gibber-jabber my suggestions:

False Orders
Raging River
Lethal Vapors
Brightflame
Light of Sanction
Brawl

Those are some of the first ones that come to mind.


Yeah, sorry to disappoint, but the group hug element was just TOO much and I couldn't make it all work. It was pulling the deck in too many directions at once and it was hard to make everything synergistic... I kept coming up with bombos and anti-synergy in cards that needed to be in... plus there was no way to avoid a 5-color deck at that stage, and that was going to KILL my mana base.

This version is more evil and fun (for me at least). Anyway, Light of Sanction is a card I have my eye on, but it's not in yet... Also Dolmen Gate, but I don't know how badly I need that one.
Brawl is funny, but as an Instant, I kinda want more out of it... plus right now my deck only has 20 creatures, and no token theme so I'll probably always be lower on creatures than anyone else.

Brightflame is a card I LOVE in theory, and have put it in virtually every EDH I've built that it was legal in... and it always gets cut due to being a shitty topdeck 90% of the time, and when I DO cast it for some effect, it's always okay but not nearly as powerful as it looked on paper.

And alas, I do not own the first three cards on you list. I do appreciate the input though. I'll keep Light of Sanction in mind... after all, where the hell else am I going to use that card?!

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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-26 1:24 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-24 3:52 pm
Age: Drake
Quote:
I do not own the first three cards on you list. I do appreciate the input though.


My local drug -- er -- Magic dealer has a False Orders, and a Raging River, and is where I got my Lethal Vapors from as well, that's why they came to mind.

Quote:
Brightflame is a card I LOVE in theory, and have put it in virtually every EDH I've built that it was legal in... and it always gets cut due to being a shitty topdeck 90% of the time, and when I DO cast it for some effect, it's always okay but not nearly as powerful as it looked on paper.


I mother-fuckin' LOVE Brightflame! Every time that I've cast it, it has wreaked havok on the board, and I wind up with triple-digit life totals -- EDH or 60-card casual. The best time was my opponent was playing R/G stompy EDH, and had a field of nearly all shrouded creatures... except for one little R/G creature... so, that was my target for a Brightflame of 9, and ALL of his dudes hit the 'yard... and I wound up pushing near 200 life off one spell. :D

Quote:
Brawl is funny, but as an Instant, I kinda want more out of it... plus right now my deck only has 20 creatures, and no token theme so I'll probably always be lower on creatures than anyone else.


Yeah, I wasn't really thinking about it being an instant. Although, if you aren't going super-creature oriented with the deck, a late-game Brawl could lead to hillarity, as all of your opponents start turning dudes sideways in an attempt to wipe the board... so, in that case, just look at Brawl as being a red version of Wrath of God. LOL. Hell, if you throw in an Isochron Scepter you can use it over and over again.


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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-26 1:37 am 
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Joined: 2009-Sep-03 3:46 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Germany
I think what Ban Ki-Moon says is a valid reason not to play the deck like you imagine atm. Maybe start more friendly and after they have learned to value combat and use the combat phase by own will, you could change the deck to the "punish you for attacking" theme.
atm you wan't to show them that attacking is good, so it should be valueable to attack or punish them if they don't do so.

Agression - Gives them reason to attack and punishes them if them still don't do so.
Arcum's Whistle - reusable punishment for not attacking, gives you more redudancy
Maddening Imp
Oracle en-Vec
Season of the Witch
Total War

Tombstone Stairwell gives tokens to your opponents, but they lose them at eot, so attacking with them is a no brainer, also combos nicely with Eldrazi Monument, cause the tokens are destroyed.

Plague of Vermin could also be of similar use, or give them a good defense, but they have to sacrifice a bunch of life for it.

Patron of the Kitsune and Righteous Cause would be good defense, but without a have-to-attack effect it could be countereffective to what you want to achieve. On the other side it gives them even more reason to attack YOU.

Pretty obvious but add in tutors, Dimir House Guard is a good one here, it finds Grand Melee or Fumiko and a regenerating guy could come in handy with your strategy.

Good luck with your plan, I hope your playgroup becomes more agressive... playstyle-wise.

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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-26 9:48 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Trigunner wrote:
I think what Ban Ki-Moon says is a valid reason not to play the deck like you imagine atm. Maybe start more friendly and after they have learned to value combat and use the combat phase by own will, you could change the deck to the "punish you for attacking" theme.

That was my original plan, I just abandoned it for various reasons. Input from the thread in Strategy, for one, and just a frustration-based change of heart for another... Again, I'm scrapping all pretense of trying to be nice and helpful here. I've spent the better part of a year trying to teach them this lesson, and they refuse to learn. As many people pointed out in the original thread, I shouldn't be so high and mighty about it.

Trigunner wrote:
atm you wan't to show them that attacking is good, so it should be valueable to attack or punish them if they don't do so.


No... that WAS what I wanted, but now I just want to exploit their play errors for maximum profit. It's not like I'm picking on newbs - these are people who've had time to learn, and even asked for my help in learning - but the just ignore 99% of what I try to teach them.

This deck is not the lesson. This deck is their punishment for not learning the lesson. IF they take something useful away from it, I'll be happy. If not, but the deck causes lulz and angst, I'll still be happy.

Dimir House Guard goes in EVERY deck, and yes it's in this one. I like Oracle En-Vec, but I'll have to order one online, next time I have the funds to do so. Righteous Cause it a bit too expensive for the effect. If I had a token deck in the group it'd be better, but I dont. Patron I like better because for only 1 mana more I get a 5/6 body... not a bad deal. I'll consider it, if I find room for it.

Plague is hilarious, but I currently have other plans for my two copies in the 60-card world...

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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-26 9:54 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Izzet or Izzn't wrote:
I mother-fuckin' LOVE Brightflame! Every time that I've cast it, it has wreaked havok on the board, and I wind up with triple-digit life totals -- EDH or 60-card casual. The best time was my opponent was playing R/G stompy EDH, and had a field of nearly all shrouded creatures... except for one little R/G creature... so, that was my target for a Brightflame of 9, and ALL of his dudes hit the 'yard... and I wound up pushing near 200 life off one spell. :D


Yeah, see, I NEVER get to do that sort of thing. It's never been better than: kill 2 or 3 guys, gain 10 to 15 life. I just have shitty luck with it. :(

Izzet or Izzn't wrote:
Yeah, I wasn't really thinking about it being an instant. Although, if you aren't going super-creature oriented with the deck, a late-game Brawl could lead to hillarity, as all of your opponents start turning dudes sideways in an attempt to wipe the board... so, in that case, just look at Brawl as being a red version of Wrath of God. LOL. Hell, if you throw in an Isochron Scepter you can use it over and over again.


Two issues - first, I know my playgroup well enough to know that, if they have more creatures than I do, the minute I cast Brawl, they'll use it against ME first, before going after anyone else (completely ignoring any pretense of actual threat assessment). Secondly, it's a bombo with Isochron Scepter, due to it costing 5 mana... not to mention that I have a past history with the Isochron so that if I EVER try to cast one in a game with these people I WILL BE KILLED ON SIGHT no matter what I imprint.

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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-26 1:54 pm 

Joined: 2010-Dec-24 3:52 pm
Age: Drake
Yup, stupid me... I was thinking Brawl cost only 2 mana for some weird reason. >.<

Well, for the sake of argument, could find a way to bounce your side of the board of creatures, then cast Brawl... let them fight amongst themselves with it, and have your dudes back at EoT?

I dunno, maybe like a Scapegoat-like effect?


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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-27 5:05 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Okay, folks, here is the current working list... I tried to play it last night, but our game got cut short and we didn't get to finish... but I did have some mana issues.

General: Oros, the Avenger

Creatures:
Kor Cartographer
Wall of Reverence
Windborn Muse
Academy Rector
Yosei, the Morning Star
Blazing Archon

Wall of Souls
Dimir House Guard
Mindslicer
Dread

Fumiko the Lowblood
Desolation Giant
Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs
Crater Hellion

Spitemare
Kaervek the Merciless
Angel of Despair

Solemn Simulacrum
Duplicant
Wurmcoil Engine

Enchantments:
Mark of Asylum

Phyrexian Arena
Bottomless Pit
No Mercy
Tainted AEther
Grave Pact
Painful Quandary

Repercussion
War's Toll
Grand Melee
Furnace of Rath

Powerstone Minefield

Artifacts:
Sol Ring
Expedition Map
Boros Signet
Rakdos Signet
Orzhov Signet
Coalition Relic

Sensei's Divining Top
Temple Bell
Geth's Grimoire
Mind's Eye

Angel's Trumpet
Uba Mask

Instants/Sorceries:
Idyllic Tutor
Wave of Reckoning

Syphon Mind
Damnation
Mind Twist

Wheel of Fortune
Chain Reaction
Wild Ricochet
Starstorm

Order//Chaos
Terminate
Fight to the Death
Master Warcraft
Vindicate
Identity Crisis

Planeswalkers:
Liliana Vess
Chandra Ablaze

Lands:

38 Lands total, mostly just the relevant duals/basics... there are 3 main utility lands:
Bojuka Bog
Kor Haven
Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace

I'll break it down in the next post.

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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-27 5:31 pm 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ok, here is a quick rundown, after playing two quick games...

The deck had some mana issues, so Kor Cartographer and Expedition Map were added only moments ago. I do not have a Weathered Wayfarer, but I will be on the lookout for one. In the mean time, I'm open to suggestions, but I'm hoping the Kor and the Map will be enough...
(Note: I don't run enough basics for Land Tax or Journeyer's Kite to be worthwhile)

Some other stuff I'd like for the deck:
Lightmine Field is a must, I just wasn't able to acquire any at the LGS.
Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant seems like a solid idea, as does...
Dolmen Gate - more narrow than Rune-Tail, but still could be relevant with Grand Melee on the board.
Oppression was swapped out for Painful Quandary, but do I want both?
Bloodcheif Ascension - I cut Vicious Shadows because I was afraid it would be anti-synergistic with the discard elements of the deck. Vicious Shadows wants my opponents to have a full grip, but this deck is explicitly designed to discourage that. I'm wondering if Bloodchief Ascension might be a better version, as it plays better with discard, but has the same effect as Vicious Shadows (in that it makes people VERY afraid to Wrath a cluttered board).
Ghostly Prison - not quite as effective a "don't attack me" card as No Mercy... but you can't have too much defense with a deck like this.
More/better early defense would be nice... Swords and Path are notably missing from this list, mostly because I forgot them, but now I'm having a hard time finding room for them.

Stuff that I'm not sold on yet:
Wall of Reverence/Wall of Souls - I like both, but I kinda didn't realize Wall of Souls only triggers on Combat Damage, so that's a little disappointing. Plus it doesn't block flyers. Wall of Reverence was GREAT in one game I played last night, but I don't really have that many creatures, so it'll often just gain me 1 life a turn... but as a 1/6 Flyer it's still highly useful.
The main concern I have with any Defender creatures is that they don't play nicely with Angel's Trumpet.

Angel's Trumpet - Speaking of which, I'm not sure I like this card. I seem to need it, but do I want it? Basically, I have to choose: do I cut this or my walls? Because they can't both stay in the deck.

Angel of Despair - I fucking love this card, but it doesn't really do anything specifically relevant to the deck...

Tainted Aether - It's good, but I'm not so sure it is good enough, or that it synergizes well with the rest of the deck. It does make any deck that runs shit like Avenger of Zendikar cry...

Sensei's Divining Top - Meh. I've never been as impressed with this thing as everyone else seems to be. Maybe I just don't have enough shuffle effects...

Wild Ricochet - Another card I just really, really love to play, but it's not really essential to the theme of the deck.

Well, that's it for now. Any suggestions about what to cut and what to add? I have a long list of potential cuts and potential inclusions, as you can see... I just need help prioritizing. What needs to be in most?

HELP!!

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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-28 5:24 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Washington D.C.
@Thread Title: Two men enter, One man leaves!

The reason I thought Oros, the Avenger might be a good fit, other than colors obviously, was that you could slap a Basilisk Collar or Quietus Spike on him and clear the board with his optional combat damage kicker. If you have Mark of Asylum or Light of Sanction out then your creatures would ignore his effect quite nicely.

EDIT: Completely forgot more suggestion!

Defensive Formation - prevent all the nasty trample damage that may come your way.

Everlasting Torment - for the lulz (combos with Dolmen Gate and Mark of Asylum nicely).

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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-28 8:32 am 

Joined: 2008-Nov-30 12:36 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Superstrength79 wrote:
@Thread Title: Two men enter, One man leaves!

The reason I thought Oros, the Avenger might be a good fit, other than colors obviously, was that you could slap a Basilisk Collar or Quietus Spike on him and clear the board with his optional combat damage kicker. If you have Mark of Asylum or Light of Sanction out then your creatures would ignore his effect quite nicely.

EDIT: Completely forgot more suggestion!

Defensive Formation - prevent all the nasty trample damage that may come your way.

Everlasting Torment - for the lulz (combos with Dolmen Gate and Mark of Asylum nicely).


Good call on the Basilisk Collar... I will try to find room. The Spike is a bit too expensive for my tast, but I also prefer the addition of lifelink. It will at least make the general occasionaly relevant.

I am confused about Everlasting Torment... they way I read it, it will completely negate the benefits I receive from Dolmen Gate/Mark of Asylum... am I missing something?

I actually HAD Everlasting Torment in the deck at first, because of the Can't Gain Life part and the Wither part seemed awesome, but I had forgotten about the damage can't be prevented part, which if I am right turns off my Mark of Asylum...

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 Post subject: Re: TONIGHT WE THUNDERDOME! (Oros Melee)
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-28 9:06 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
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Ugh, nope. You didn't miss anything, I did lol

- 1 Everlasting Torment

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