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 Post subject: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2010-Dec-20 2:09 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The old topic for this deck was horrendously outdated, so I thought I'd just start over and post my favorite Commander deck that no one ever comments on:

General: Damia, Sage of Stone

Dakmor Salvage
Life from the Loam
Stinkweed Imp
Golgari Grave-Troll

Bone Shredder
Sylvok Replica
Wickerbough Elder
Shriekmaw
Acidic Slime
Attrition
Maelstrom Pulse
Black Sun's Zenith
Toxic Deluge
Pernicious Deed
Damnation
Grave Pact

Drowned Rusalka
Mulldrifter
Skullclamp
Fauna Shaman
Trinket Mage
Entomb
Vampiric Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Survival of the Fittest
Birthing Pod

Eternal Witness
Archaeomancer
Genesis
Havengul Lich
Tortured Existence
Oversold Cemetery
Regrowth
Victimize

Deathrite Shaman
Rootwater Thief
Disciple of Griselbrand
Riftsweeper
Scavenging Ooze
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Wonder
Prophet of Kruphix
Elixir of Immortality

Sadistic Hypnotist
Mind Slash

Phantasmal Image
Nighthowler
Splinterfright
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Phyrexian Metamorph
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Triskelion
Worm Harvest

Birds of Paradise
Hermit Druid
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Viridian Emissary
Yavimaya Elder
Solemn Simulacrum
Sol Ring
Chromatic Lantern

5 Forest
2 Island
4 Swamp
Evolving Wilds
Terramorphic Expanse
Polluted Delta
Verdant Catacombs
Misty Rainforest
Underground Sea
Bayou
Tropical Island
Watery Grave
Overgrown Tomb
Breeding Pool
Drowned Catacombs
Woodland Cemetery
Hinterland Harbor
Dimir Aqueduct
Golgari Rot Farm
Simic Growth Chamber
Command Tower
Tranquil Thicket
Lonely Sandbar
Barren Moor
Dryad Arbor
Cephalid Coliseum
Bojuka Bog
Bazaar of Baghdad
Dust Bowl
Volrath's Stronghold

Current as of 24-xii-2013

Pics! The deck as of 22-i-2013.

So the game plan of the deck is something like this: ramp in the early game, start dredging in the midgame, and live out of your graveyard in the late game. The dredge cards act a lot like card drawing spells thanks to all the recursion you have, making this deck very consistent in long games where you can see the majority of your library over a couple of turns. You generally win either by reanimating fat guys or continuously casting Worm Harvest and making a huge army of tokens.

_________________
kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


Last edited by Aggro_zombies on 2013-Dec-24 10:34 am, edited 24 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-05 6:10 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-20 8:16 pm
Age: Dragon
This deck seems like a lot of fun to play, and I might have to brew up my own build of this sometime in the near future. Here are some quick thoughts just glancing over the list:

Do you need quite so much 1 for 1 spot removal?

Glissa the Traitor combos okay with all your artifact-based removal. Especially if you Corpse Dance her into play, and then just blow her up or sac her before EOT.

Cephalid Sage/Sphinx of Lost Truths to "draw" a million cards off of dread return or some such?

What's Lightning Greaves for? Would Hall of the Bandit Lord be better if you're just using it for haste?

How often does Vorosh actually get cast?

Krovikan Horror? Built in sac outlet AND recurs itself for some synergy with Survival of the Fittest and Cephalid Coliseum.

Is Golgari Guildmage worth it? It seems pretty mediocre.

Is Dawn of the Dead worth a slot?

Deep Reconnaissance is a ramp spell that plays a little more nicely later.

Oath of Druids/Forbidden Orchard?

Krosan Reclamation might be worthwhile if you dredge THAT much of your library.

Is Avatar of Woe THAT good just because you can cast it for BB midgame?

Is Filth just better than Wonder? Do enough people play Urborg to make that worth changing?

You could run Exoskeletal Armor, or the new equipment version from MBS, to try to one-shot people with Vorosh, or just make utility guys giant beaters. Similarly, Centaur Garden might help with that goal, if you choose to pursue it.

Does Cabal Pit do enough to be worthwhile? I've been pretty disappointed with that and Barbarian Ring in the Child of Alara deck, so I'm curious.

Could you use some tricks from that deck to increase your longevity? Glacial Chasm recursion seems okay, if not as broken.

Moment's Peace and Tangle are two of my favorite fog effects, and give you another route of getting infi-fog with Mnemonic Wall.

Any chance of Zombie Infestation being good here? I love that card to death, and have been dying to find a deck to make it work.

It that Betrays + Necrotic Ooze might be the most hilarious thing I've seen all day. Would it be too gimmicky to add Quillspike to one-shot someone? Is there a more compact Necrotic Ooze "win the game" combo the deck could utilize? Maybe with Soliton?

Buried Alive and Intuition? Worth it or not?

Is Flux okay as a second copy of Windfall?

I didn't notice a Bojuka Bog. Was that intentional?




I know it's a lot of disjointed ideas, but it's hard to really understand whats going on without playing the deck. That said, it looks like a lot of fun to play.

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-05 10:12 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Giant post!
94teen wrote:
Do you need quite so much 1 for 1 spot removal?

Well, you need removal, and the sweepers in these colors are either expensive, weak, or both. Deed is basically head and shoulders above all other options, and Damnation is very good, but the quality from there rapidly declines. You'll be dead or very far behind by the time you're casting stuff like Plague Wind or Forced March.
94teen wrote:
Cephalid Sage/Sphinx of Lost Truths to "draw" a million cards off of dread return or some such?

I had Sphinx at one point but it was just kind of weak. You don't want to Dread Return it usually since it's not very powerful on its own, and casting it is fine but not great. Never tried Sage but I assume Sphinx is better just because of the body.
94teen wrote:
What's Lightning Greaves for? Would Hall of the Bandit Lord be better if you're just using it for haste?

To protect your fat guys from targeted removal. It's getting cut soon for Bonehoard.
94teen wrote:
How often does Vorosh actually get cast?

Three times in the year this deck has been together, so virtually never.
94teen wrote:
Krovikan Horror? Built in sac outlet AND recurs itself for some synergy with Survival of the Fittest and Cephalid Coliseum.

I had it in here at one point and cut it for something stronger. The deck has been shuffled around a lot since then, though, so it might be worth looking at again. The damage is pretty irrelevant and the body is kind of bad, though...
94teen wrote:
Is Golgari Guildmage worth it? It seems pretty mediocre.

It's another recursion tool that can randomly pump stuff. It's not great, but it's pretty solid. I like it.
94teen wrote:
Is Dawn of the Dead worth a slot?

Depends. I'm not much a fan of exiling my own creatures, and I'd need to add more sacrifice outlets to allow for efficient creature recycling.
94teen wrote:
Deep Reconnaissance is a ramp spell that plays a little more nicely later.

Far Wanderings is basically the same card, except better in almost every way.
94teen wrote:
Krosan Reclamation might be worthwhile if you dredge THAT much of your library.

Elixir of Immortality is sufficient, and protects me from graveyard hate to boot.
94teen wrote:
Is Avatar of Woe THAT good just because you can cast it for BB midgame?

Well, it's a 6/5 with fear, so that's something. That said, I cut it to add a Necrotic Ooze + Grim Poppet + Devoted Druid combo, which is much harder to set up but Wraths the board at will.
94teen wrote:
Is Filth just better than Wonder? Do enough people play Urborg to make that worth changing?

Sun Quan, Lord of Wu is better than Wonder, but I don't own one. That aside, Urborg is relatively uncommon around here, and I'm not that keen on one of my own.
94teen wrote:
Does Cabal Pit do enough to be worthwhile? I've been pretty disappointed with that and Barbarian Ring in the Child of Alara deck, so I'm curious.

Yes and no. It kills utility guys, with which this deck can occasionally have problems. However, both it and Darkblast are often painfully weak, so I might yet cut it.
94teen wrote:
Any chance of Zombie Infestation being good here? I love that card to death, and have been dying to find a deck to make it work.

It drifts in and out depending on how all-in I'm feeling. The tokens are often irrelevant because of their size, and the discard effect is only good in a narrow window of time (early on). That said, hilarity ensues if you combine ZI with Sylvan Library and more than one dredge dude.
94teen wrote:
Buried Alive and Intuition? Worth it or not?

The latter is better than the former, and I have kind of a love-hate relationship with it. That said, when Intuition is good, it's very, very good.
94teen wrote:
Is Flux okay as a second copy of Windfall?

I'm not sure you need a second copy of Windfall, but if you do, Flux is fine.
94teen wrote:
I didn't notice a Bojuka Bog. Was that intentional?

No, actually. I surprised I didn't have it in the list when I went to tutor for it the other day. I'll probably add one over Pit.

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kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-05 10:39 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-20 8:16 pm
Age: Dragon
Regarding the spot removal, some suggestions:

Boneshredder is like another Shriekmaw. Just don't pay echo.

Decree of Pain - uncounterable early sweeper, lategame bomb. It's good in a lot of other decks, it plays a little nicely with Darkblast, I guess, but seems okay.

Plague Boiler? Nev's Disk? They'd go really well with a Glissa, the Traitor.



Some other thoughts now that I've had some time to think about it:

Crypt of Agadeem? Good enough? I don't know how hungry this deck is for mana, or how much it'd generate. I only count 13ish black creatures I'd want to run (your 11 or so plus Glissa and Boneshredder), but I guess that number could be tweaked if this effect seems powerful enough. If it is, maybe Crop Rotation, which might be worth it if you're running Bojuka Bog. If it'd generate "enough" mana, then Deserted Temple seems good, and at that point Thawing Glaciers seems okay, since it becomes ramp with deserted temple, and is actually a pretty decent engine.

Oversold Cemetery/Oath of Ghouls/Phyrexian Reclamation - Permanent-based genesis-esque effects. They're better in the sense that they're less expensive. The conditions don't seem that hard to meet.

Nihil Spellbomb - Trinket Mage only gets...Top? And Executioner's Capsule,I guess. There's almost no drawback to running this. On second glance, it gets Elixir, which is more important in this deck than most, I suppose.

Thinking about it, I'm actually liking the idea of Glissa, the Traitor in this deck more and more. Machine-gun with Executioner's Capsule, it makes it easier to run utility artifacts and the like. It's sort of like a more conditional but more powerful Academy Ruins. Speaking of which, where's that?

How would Memory Jar be in this deck? It lets you go nuts with Glissa, but I don't know how much turbo-dredge this is. If you're looking for a faster dredge, Hedron Crab and Glimpse the Unthinkable might be okay.


Blasted Landscape/Slippery Karst/etc - Do you need MORE cycling lands? Probably not, but worth suggesting.

Undead Gladiator is like a one-card engine for the deck, though it's slow. It's a discard outlet and a draw "engine" in one card. Maybe worth it, maybe not.

Deep Analysis? Flashback spells are always good, and this one seems to fit right in. If you can find enough good flashback cards (Crippling Fatigue, Cabal Therapy, Roar of the Wurm, Crush of Wurms, etc) Quiet Speculation might be good enough.

You run Reassembliing Skeleton, but not Bloodghast. Is there a particular utility that Skeleton fills that Bloodghast doesn't? at second glance, I see that you cut Skeleton recently, so this might not be worthwhile.


This is just me fawning over new cards, but Glissa would make Nim Deathmantle a reasonable card to run, and, as always, that card's sort of like recurring nightmare, which is banned. It's really roundabout, but seems powerful when you're completely capable of recurring all the pieces. This gets significantly better if it's worth it to add Crop Rotation and Deserted Temple to go with your land-based sac outlets.

Speaking of land-based sac outlets, Phyrexian Tower?

That's sort of all I've got at the moment, but it seems like a good start. I'm going to proxy up a list that's probably somewhere between 5 and 8 cards different and see how that goes. This looks like a blast to play!

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-05 11:43 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
94teen wrote:
Decree of Pain - uncounterable early sweeper, lategame bomb. It's good in a lot of other decks, it plays a little nicely with Darkblast, I guess, but seems okay.

I'm adding Massacre Wurm soon, so I'm not sure Decree of Pain will make it. Wurm only kills my opponents' things and then causes huge amounts of life loss, regardless of whether or not I'm the one killing the creatures. It seems pretty good here.
94teen wrote:
Crypt of Agadeem? Good enough? I don't know how hungry this deck is for mana, or how much it'd generate. I only count 13ish black creatures I'd want to run (your 11 or so plus Glissa and Boneshredder), but I guess that number could be tweaked if this effect seems powerful enough. If it is, maybe Crop Rotation, which might be worth it if you're running Bojuka Bog. If it'd generate "enough" mana, then Deserted Temple seems good, and at that point Thawing Glaciers seems okay, since it becomes ramp with deserted temple, and is actually a pretty decent engine.

If Crypt counted all creatures (as in, was a true Song of the Damned), it would be an auto-in. As it is, it doesn't often tap for enough mana early and isn't needed late.
94teen wrote:
Oversold Cemetery/Oath of Ghouls/Phyrexian Reclamation - Permanent-based genesis-esque effects. They're better in the sense that they're less expensive. The conditions don't seem that hard to meet.

Got Reclamation in there. The other two are also okay, but I only have one Cemetery (currently in Geth) and no Oaths.
94teen wrote:
Nihil Spellbomb - Trinket Mage only gets...Top? And Executioner's Capsule,I guess. There's almost no drawback to running this. On second glance, it gets Elixir, which is more important in this deck than most, I suppose.

Trinket Mage gets Elixir almost every single time. It's impossible to understate how powerful graveyard hate can be against this deck. If you get Crypted (or Reliced, or Spellbombed, or Bogged) when 60-70% of your library is in your graveyard, you will lose. Elixir is a guarantee against having lots of important stuff randomly vanishing, so it's a priority target. That Trinket Mage also gets removal or Top is gravy, but it's mostly there as a creature-based way to guarantee having an Elixir available.
94teen wrote:
Thinking about it, I'm actually liking the idea of Glissa, the Traitor in this deck more and more. Machine-gun with Executioner's Capsule, it makes it easier to run utility artifacts and the like. It's sort of like a more conditional but more powerful Academy Ruins. Speaking of which, where's that?

Glissa and Academy both want more artifacts than this deck runs. Right now, the deck (as I have it) wants creatures quite a bit because of Troll, Genesis, Bonehoard, Dread Return, Phyrexian Reclamation, Survival, Fauna Shaman, Body Double, and so on. Often, the deck will struggle in the midgame to establish board presence because it will have a bunch of awesome spells but be short on awesome creatures.
94teen wrote:
How would Memory Jar be in this deck? It lets you go nuts with Glissa, but I don't know how much turbo-dredge this is. If you're looking for a faster dredge, Hedron Crab and Glimpse the Unthinkable might be okay.

Turbo-Dredge is very bad in EDH. The deck was like that originally but has since moved away from it because the turbo versions are very unstable and inconsistent. Being a Highlander deck means you can't really take a more Legacy or Vintage approach to dredge, as your key cards show up too infrequently or take too long to set up.
94teen wrote:
Blasted Landscape/Slippery Karst/etc - Do you need MORE cycling lands? Probably not, but worth suggesting.

Ran them at one point, but they were pretty unnecessary.
94teen wrote:
Deep Analysis? Flashback spells are always good, and this one seems to fit right in. If you can find enough good flashback cards (Crippling Fatigue, Cabal Therapy, Roar of the Wurm, Crush of Wurms, etc) Quiet Speculation might be good enough.

Only getting a single use out of my spells is kind of a downer. I make an exception for Dread Return because of how powerful it is, but when I possible I like to cast my spells over and over again.
94teen wrote:
You run Reassembliing Skeleton, but not Bloodghast. Is there a particular utility that Skeleton fills that Bloodghast doesn't? at second glance, I see that you cut Skeleton recently, so this might not be worthwhile.

It's actually still in there. I don't own any Bloodghasts and like Skeleton as a blocker; I also appreciate how easy it is to bring back multiple times in a turn (relevant for stuff like Rusalka or the suggested Krovikan Horror).
94teen wrote:
That's sort of all I've got at the moment, but it seems like a good start. I'm going to proxy up a list that's probably somewhere between 5 and 8 cards different and see how that goes. This looks like a blast to play!

It's very fun, but the size of the decision tree is daunting. I screw up all the time with this deck, especially in multiplayer.

~~~~~

Let me talk about the deck more generally. You're a midrange deck with an incredible draw engine and a very, very powerful late game thanks to all your recursion. As such, the game generally breaks down into three pretty distinct phases: the Ramp phase, where you build mana and establish defenses; the Dredge phase, where your primary interests are in dredging and recurring key removal or creature spells to control the board and protect yourself; and the Late Game, when you reanimate bomb after bomb and cast the same removal cards every single turn to completely dominate the board. Basically, if you make it to the third phase, the only thing that will stop you is a one-turn combo kill, since your creatures are going to be the best, they'll be unkillable, and you'll have access to virtually every card in your deck. The problems arise mostly in the Ramp phase from decks that are faster than you and force you to go off script in order to stay alive. The deck's late game is fine as-is, so I feel no need to add something like Praetor's Council, for example. The Dredge phase is mostly fine because of the tutors I'm running. I just kind of wish I could establish a faster, more water-tight defense early on so that I could start dredging unmolested (tip: if you're under pressure, it rarely pays to dredge). Most of the work I've done lately has been in line with realizing that goal.

So I guess this is now as good a time as any to address the Glissa question: if you want to properly support Glissa, you're going to need to take the deck in a different direction. This version is more creature-oriented, and is more aggro. The Glissa version would be more control-oriented, lighter on creatures (since most of the sweet artifacts aren't guys), and would need to be less creature-centric (I could see wanting cards like Nature's Spiral over Guildmage there because you want flexibility). Child of Alara is my current deck in that vein, so I'll leave exploring a more artifact-based control dredge deck to someone else. That said, first strike and deathtouch make Glissa a perfectly reasonable card alone, and I may end up adding her at some point for just that reason. We'll see.

I'm still deciding the fate of a couple of slots, but once I'm done I'll update the OP. I don't often update postings for this deck since it rarely gets comments. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-05 11:52 pm 

Joined: 2009-Feb-20 8:16 pm
Age: Dragon
That's fair. I'll play a few games before I mess with the deck too much. I'm just thinking that Glissa will actually help the deck to keep the game under control in the mid to late game phase.

Even just looking at the deck as is, Sylvok Replica and Executioner's Capsule are awesome targets, and it seems easier to recur them with Glissa than most other mechanisms. They also seem pretty significantly more efficient than some other options, though the recursion mechanism is a little roundabout. It also gives you a recurring wrath when necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-06 12:00 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
94teen wrote:
That's fair. I'll play a few games before I mess with the deck too much. I'm just thinking that Glissa will actually help the deck to keep the game under control in the mid to late game phase.

Even just looking at the deck as is, Sylvok Replica and Executioner's Capsule are awesome targets, and it seems easier to recur them with Glissa than most other mechanisms. They also seem pretty significantly more efficient than some other options, though the recursion mechanism is a little roundabout. It also gives you a recurring wrath when necessary.

I'm using the Necrotic Ooze / Poppet / Druid recurring Wrath, which is hilarious. Actually, Ooze itself is hilarious, but being able to kill everything, all the time, without hope of regeneration is delicious.

I could see also adding stuff like Perilous Myr (colorless Arc Trail, baby!), Courier's Capsule (probably better than Mulldrifter in a Glissa-centric build), Skullclamp, Tangle Wire, and possibly Smokestack. Actually, Glissa rock may allow you to drop blue entirely and just go B/G with Glissa as the general.

One of the questions that's been on my mind recently has been whether blue is still even necessary here, and what would replace it (if anything). Here's what I've come up with:

White offers better board control and better reanimation targets: Iona, Novablast Wurm, Sun Titan, Blazing Archon, more Wraths, Swords and Path, Akroma's Vengeance and so on.

Red offers better reanimation targets and more ways to sacrifice creatures for profit: various dragons, Goblin Bombardment, Kresh the Bloodbraided, various cards with devour, and so on.

Blue gives me some powerful draw and tutor options, though, so I think I'll stick with it for now (it also helps that I all of the duals in this deck are full-art, but I don't have full-art Savannah or Scrubland).

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kaldare wrote:
Printing generically and boringly powerful cards obviously intended for commander does the format zero favors.

Sidisi - Nin


Last edited by Aggro_zombies on 2011-Feb-06 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-06 12:06 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-20 8:16 pm
Age: Dragon
Has Reclamation been recently cut or added? i don't see it in the OP, which is why I ask.


It's actually interesting to think about whether or not blue is necessary. The problem that I have with cutting is is that the "draw engine" piece of the deck seems to be blue. How else would you find Elixir fast enough? And Mulldrifter is just sweet.


As much as I hate doing something like that, what happens when you go to 5 color? Or even just three color with that Karador guy as the general? Or RBG with Adun as the general? It's really obnoxious that UBG is just about the only combination which doesn't have an absurdly synergistic general, since it's probably the most resilient and most flexible build, since you can take the deck in so many directions. Here's hoping that one of the precons has a better choice?

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-06 12:21 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
94teen wrote:
Has Reclamation been recently cut or added? i don't see it in the OP, which is why I ask.

It's been there forever and was just omitted. Thanks for pointing that out, I wouldn't have noticed otherwise.

94teen wrote:
As much as I hate doing something like that, what happens when you go to 5 color? Or even just three color with that Karador guy as the general? Or RBG with Adun as the general? It's really obnoxious that UBG is just about the only combination which doesn't have an absurdly synergistic general, since it's probably the most resilient and most flexible build, since you can take the deck in so many directions.

Well, the white deck ends up being more of a board-control-into-Reanimator sort of deck because the bomby white cards are all on the top end. I'm not sure that deck wants to dredge very often because it's harder to recur spells than creatures, but most of the stuff white brings to the table consists either of spells or difficult-to-cast creatures like Iona or Blazing Archon. That said, Karador seems really good, and was the original impetus for thinking about other colors.

I agree that the general being mostly irrelevant is annoying, but he's just fine as a guy. I just never find myself in situations where casting him is better than my other options - although part of that may be that I'm so used to not casting him that I've just become blind to situations where I could play him for profit. I noticed one such situation the other night where I needed a blocker and had the mana to cast Vorosh, but ended up dying to poison because it just never occurred to me to cast my general. It will be interesting to see how often you cast him, since I assume you don't have those mental blinders on.

Five color gives you a lot of options, but mostly just for your bomb reanimation targets. The core of the deck is still black-green, but your mana gets worse. I don't think the trade offs are worth it.

Red is kind of interesting. The more I look at red, the more I like it as a kind of Kresh deck where dredge is more of an efficient recycling mechanic that also finds you ridiculous dragons to reanimate and new sac outlets. I think it's a legitimate way to go, but it suffers from not having enough draw to compliment the dredge cards. Then again, Harmonize, Phyrexian Arena, Library, Bazaar of Baghdad, and various powerful Jund cards may just be enough. However, I don't like red, so I won't build that deck.

94teen wrote:
Here's hoping that one of the precons has a better choice?

I'm crossing my fingers, but I have a feeling the black-green-white one is going to be the Reanimator one. Not sure what the Vorosh deck will end up being (since those colors tend to just end up as amorphous "good stuff" blobs), but hopefully it has some sweet stuff for this deck.

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-06 12:30 am 
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Quote:
and the Late Game, when you reanimate bomb after bomb and cast the same removal cards every single turn to completely dominate the board. Basically, if you make it to the third phase, the only thing that will stop you is a one-turn combo kill, since your creatures are going to be the best, they'll be unkillable, and you'll have access to virtually every card in your deck.
This claim seems extreme. It seems like all a body would have to do is draw graveyard hate and board control at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-06 12:47 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Fugu wrote:
Quote:
and the Late Game, when you reanimate bomb after bomb and cast the same removal cards every single turn to completely dominate the board. Basically, if you make it to the third phase, the only thing that will stop you is a one-turn combo kill, since your creatures are going to be the best, they'll be unkillable, and you'll have access to virtually every card in your deck.
This claim seems extreme. It seems like all a body would have to do is draw graveyard hate and board control at the same time.

Okay, it's a bit over the top; I definitely wouldn't recommend this deck as a regular feature in an area where people metagame their EDH decks pretty aggressively, for example. However, for me it's not too far from the truth: graveyard hate isn't too common around here, so mostly I just have to worry about putting my board back together after someone tries to Wrath me - that, or I just retrace Worm Harvest for fourteen guys and start attacking. I actually won that way against a mono-white 8.5 Tails deck with virtually ever Wrath effect ever printed simply because he had no way to get rid of my Worm Harvest, and couldn't draw sweepers faster than I could get the lands (which was eventually every turn - thanks LftL!). And yes, you really can Worm Harvest for fourteen: the average seems to be somewhere between 12-15, but I've hit up to 20 Worms a pop before. It's fun.

One of the things I've been doing lately is scaling down my high end so that I can actually cast those cards. It That Betrays is nice and all, but it's super expensive (among other things). If it dies, it will eat an entire turn if you go to recast it. Something like Steel Hellkite is fine, though, since six mana is pretty easy and it hits just as hard, in a way.

To be a little less overblown, you'd need to get swept every turn in order to be really hurt. You gain a lot of inevitability as the game goes on because you'll see a lot of your deck, and you can pick and choose the right tools. This is a big part of the reason Elixir is so important - losing those tools forever to a Bojuka Bog severely hampers your options in the future, so it's better to hide them and have to start over than to just hope the Bog doesn't show up.

I don't get to play EDH often enough anymore for people to really metagame against me. Consequently, graveyard hate levels fluctuate depending on what other people are playing and what the individual pilots feel like (some of them just won't add GY hate because it doesn't help their deck's themes). Board control cards are in every deck, but there aren't many decks around here with concentrations high enough to be dangerous. It's mostly just fast decks I need to worry about.

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-06 12:54 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-20 8:16 pm
Age: Dragon
Maybe one of the commanders will be Necrotic Ooze + Experiment Kraj. That seems like a good one.


And I don't really think that the claim that this style of deck absolutely dominates the late game is too farfetched. You see the same sort of thing in the land-based child decks. If you get enough time to set up, it's pretty hard to disable the engine.

If they have graveyard hate, you have some built in redundancy. If they've got removal, you can recur the pieces. it slows you down, but doesn't really change anything. You've still got the inevitability on your side.

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-06 1:00 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
94teen wrote:
Maybe one of the commanders will be Necrotic Ooze + Experiment Kraj. That seems like a good one.

Please don't get my hopes up like this. ;___;

94teen wrote:
And I don't really think that the claim that this style of deck absolutely dominates the late game is too farfetched. You see the same sort of thing in the land-based child decks. If you get enough time to set up, it's pretty hard to disable the engine.

If they have graveyard hate, you have some built in redundancy. If they've got removal, you can recur the pieces. it slows you down, but doesn't really change anything. You've still got the inevitability on your side.

This. I've spent a bit of time building redundancy into the deck as a way to fight graveyard removal. Right now, aside from the dredge cards, the only truly unique cards in terms of the roles they play are Wonder and Worm Harvest. Wonder can be backed up with Sun Quan, Lord of Wu, but there's isn't really another card that's Harvest-like but also roughly as good.

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-06 1:15 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-20 8:16 pm
Age: Dragon
well, which part of Worm Harvest needs redundancy? If it's the blockers, then don't Spore Frog and spike feeder accomplish that? If it's a quick, efficient win condition, isn't that Vorosh? Or Grave Titan? Or Necrotic Ooze?

Filth is almost exactly the same thing as Wonder if you run Urborg. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding the land, all things considered.

I really think that Hall of the Bandit Lord might be worth a shot. It's the same as Lightning Greaves, but recurrable. Steel Hellkite, Vorosh, and Grave Titan all become MUCH better with haste, as does Necrotic Ooze. Could you add Thornling to go infinite with Ooze + stuff? Thornling will give it haste and can go infinite once you've got Grim Poppet.

Fatesticher might be okay. Untaps Fauna Shaman/Avatar of Woe/Ooze/stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Vorosh: Commander Dredge
AgePosted: 2011-Feb-06 1:25 am 

Joined: 2009-Feb-09 4:00 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
94teen wrote:
well, which part of Worm Harvest needs redundancy? If it's the blockers, then don't Spore Frog and spike feeder accomplish that? If it's a quick, efficient win condition, isn't that Vorosh? Or Grave Titan? Or Necrotic Ooze?

Filth is almost exactly the same thing as Wonder if you run Urborg. You shouldn't have too much trouble finding the land, all things considered.

I really think that Hall of the Bandit Lord might be worth a shot. It's the same as Lightning Greaves, but recurrable. Steel Hellkite, Vorosh, and Grave Titan all become MUCH better with haste, as does Necrotic Ooze. Could you add Thornling to go infinite with Ooze + stuff? Thornling will give it haste and can go infinite once you've got Grim Poppet.

Fatesticher might be okay. Untaps Fauna Shaman/Avatar of Woe/Ooze/stuff.

Worm Harvest is swarm + resilience to Wraths. Just being able to spam attackers and not care about how many are dying is awesome.

Filth plus Urborg seems okay. I have my reservations about Urborg (the card) for various reasons, and Sun Quan just seems so cool, but I can see this option working much better (for starters, it doesn't involve any P3K cards).

Hall of the Bandit Lord - eh, maybe. My gut reaction is indifference, but it may be good.

Thornling is certainly a way to protect Ooze, but it doesn't let you go infinite - you need Quillspike for that. Thornling just has Morphling's seesawing power and toughness, so at best you kill everything and make Ooze a 6/1. Then again, if you can kill everything with Ooze, it kind of doesn't matter how big it is, because all of your guys are getting through.

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