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 Post subject: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-31 3:08 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
When I started the big Mayael thread I professed to having a fondness for Combo and Control. I have since built many decks, mostly of a controlish nature and have kept from doing anything too absurdly comboish to my playgroup.

Earlier this year everything changed. It was love at first sight. I did not want to cheat on Mayael. I love her, but it was just too tempting. I couldn’t help myself! At first I tried to keep it under control, trying to just be friends, doing fun things together and leaving it at that. It soon became obvious that this wouldn’t work. Glissa brings out the evil in me…

I feel like I’m cheating, building a deck like this, but Glissa has seduced me. I cannot resist, must … play … combo! I’m giving in.

Long story short, I have decided to build the absolute best Glissa deck I can. I have been thinking about how to build this deck since I first saw Glissa and now feel I can share my deck and thoughts to get feedback from the community.

To be clear, this deck is not meant to be played regularly in casual groups. I like to build this deck as a thought experiment and see how it does against competitive decks. I might play it within my regular group on rare occasions for demonstration purposes, or maybe after a particularly unfair game to get revenge but these occasions should be very rare. Otherwise this deck will be for competitive exclusively, which I will find outside of my regular group.

Early attempts had me go for a friendly deck using arcbound creatures, chimera’s, a ton of cute little artifacts that sacked to draw cards, I have tried it all. While these experiments were interesting it felt that this was not even close to the full potential of Glissa. Not long after I became aware that I might be playing with competitive EDH players more often and so I decided to go for a competitive build.

My first competetive attempt was to try the Hermit / Ooze combo in the deck. The deck could work pretty well on a good draw but was a bit of a one-trick pony due to all the combo pieces (Acorn Harvest saved a card in comparison to the usual unearth creatures, but that is about as much streamlining as I could do). In goldfishing the deck did very well, but I would hate to try it against anything that does more than go “blub” at me.

Thinking further about this I realized that I could shave off some combo pieces by putting in play a Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed that would get back Yawgmoth's Will, which could then be used to go infinite with the permanents in my graveyard (Basalt Monolith and Rings of Brighthearth is a nice 2 card combo to get things started). Shortly after that I realized I could cut out the middle man, why go for the Dread Return + creatures at all if I could just flash back Krosan Reclamation and use my regular draw to get the Will instead?

This even allowed me to duplicate the effect of Will with Creeping Renaissance that would also prove useful for backup combo’s. In fact the only thing that’s hard to duplicate is the Reclamation and even then Reclaim, Noxious Revival and some others do a reasonable impression.

The down side of this combo is its higher mana requirements. At its best I can Druid and Reclamation end of turn of the player before me, draw Will on my turn and go off with 3 mana available (the same as Harvest + Return would require, but a turn slower). Should I want to go off in a single turn I need 6 mana for Will or 8 mana for the Renaissance (possibly without Reclamation because of Flashback). The Renaissance would be preferable as I would prefer not to get important cards exiled.

Fortunately there are quite a few mana artifacts that could help me accelerate, which incidentally can be brought back by Glissa should I face removal. In fact, there are quite a few lock cards that don’t care too much for artifacts (Death Cloud) and many are artifacts themselves (Winter Orb). Glissa could even bring these back as well.

I realized that while I might be a bit slow I would be pretty good at playing through lock cards. They might slow me down a bit: but not quite as much as they will slow down opponents as I will have a ton of acceleration and only need a lot of mana for a single turn. A strategy was born. I will actively disrupt opponents with Stax elements while I set up the combo(s).

At this point I decided the deck should basically consist of:

  • Acceleration
  • Tutors
  • Regrowth effects
  • Lock elements / disruption
  • Combo parts
Let me first give you the full deck (copied straight from an MWS file so you can easily copy it back in should you want to look at the deck in there and maybe try out a few hands).

// Lands
1 [OD] Deserted Temple
1 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [AQ] Mishra's Workshop
1 [RAV] Overgrown Tomb
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
1 [AP] Llanowar Wastes
1 [EVE] Twilight Mire
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [MR] Glimmervoid
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [B] Bayou
1 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
1 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [MI] Crystal Vein
1 [AN] City of Brass
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [RAV] Golgari Rot Farm
1 [CFX] Exotic Orchard
1 [LG] Urborg
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [SHM] Leechridden Swamp
1 [CMD] Command Tower
1 [MR] Tree of Tales
1 [MR] Vault of Whispers
1 [SHM] Sapseep Forest
1 [ISD] Woodland Cemetery
1 [CHK] Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 [AQ] Strip Mine (2)
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
1 [SH] Hermit Druid
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
1 [CHK] Myojin of Night's Reach
1 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder
1 [FUT] Riftsweeper

// Spells
1 [US] Smokestack
1 [B] Sol Ring
1 [FD] Conjurer's Bauble
1 [MR] Oblivion Stone
1 [OD] Innocent Blood
1 [B] Regrowth
1 [B] Demonic Tutor
1 [VI] Vampiric Tutor
1 [P3] Imperial Seal
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [B] Dark Ritual
1 [BIN] Mana Crypt
1 [B] Mana Vault
1 [UL] Grim Monolith
1 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [B] Winter Orb
1 [NE] Tangle Wire
1 [MR] Gilded Lotus
1 [SOM] Mox Opal
1 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [UD] Thran Dynamo
1 [US] Yawgmoth's Will
1 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [RAV] Golgari Signet
1 [ALA] Executioner's Capsule
1 [JU] Krosan Reclamation
1 [ZEN] Khalni Gem
1 [MR] Mind's Eye
1 [DS] Death Cloud
1 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [NPH] Noxious Revival
1 [TE] Scroll Rack
1 [TE] Static Orb
1 [MI] Worldly Tutor
1 [PT] Sylvan Tutor
1 [RAV] Shred Memory
1 [UL] Memory Jar
1 [PLC] Damnation
1 [RAV] Chord of Calling
1 [MOR] Thornbite Staff
1 [ON] Syphon Mind
1 [SOM] Genesis Wave
1 [IA] Necropotence
1 [UL] Defense Grid
1 [US] Voltaic Key
1 [LRW] Rings of Brighthearth
1 [B] Basalt Monolith
1 [EX] Reclaim
1 [MR] Sculpting Steel
1 [LG] The Abyss
1 [MR] Mesmeric Orb
1 [ISD] Creeping Renaissance
1 [NPH] Pristine Talisman
1 [CHK] Reito Lantern
1 [ST] Grim Tutor
1 [FD] Krark-Clan Ironworks

Now onto the different parts of the deck.

Acceleration

Chrome Mox is not really an option due to a low amount of coloured cards, Elvish Spirit Guide and Worn Powerstone might be. Khalni Gem may look a little odd, but it can help get more lands into play after I combo and it can be more acceleration when I have no land drop for the turn. These might not be enough reasons for playing it, but trying it for now. The Zenith could get Dryad Arbor in case you’re wondering and the Key will accelerate together with any artifact that provides 2 or more mana..

Tutors

The way I see it impressive amounts of draw acts as tutors either by getting tutors, or by getting the card you want to find.

Mostly ways to get the Druid. Unfortunately I run too few creatures for Diabolic Intent, Survival of the Fittest or Fauna Shaman. I have 10 actual tutors anyway, which seems to be a decent amount. I wouldn’t mind a few more though.

Regrowth effects

Do not underestimate Glissa’s ability to keep lock or combo pieces around, creatures will die even without my help. Otherwise my biggest vulnerability is to Krosan Reclamation getting countered or stopped some other way. If that happens I must be able to get something on top of my library. Even with as much duplication as I have among my combo pieces it seems like a good idea to have a Riftsweeper available to bail me out when something gets exiled.

Lock elements / disruption

A few cards to trigger Glissa should I have to, then some mana limiting cards to keep them busy. I would like to play more mana limiting such as Sphere of Resistance or Nether Void but that would rule out combo-ing. The Golem works because my mana accelerants are artifacts so it does not stop me from going off.

Combo parts

I will first list every infinite combo currently possible (or at least those I have so far identified), I realize this gets a little chaotic, but due to all the possible interactions this is pretty hard to avoid. These combo’s can be combined in any way required and generally I will start with getting access to the entire deck, then accomplish infinite mana and then finally find some way to kill the opposition.

Gain access to the entire deck (either in the graveyard or in hand):


When the entire deck is accessible (through Yawgmoth's Will or Creeping Renaissance brought back by Krosan Reclamation when the deck is in the graveyard):

  • Pristine Talisman + Voltaic Key + Rings of Brighthearth for infinite life. Similar to the infinite mana combo this can also be accomplished by replaying the Talisman on every Renaissance loop iteration to get around the need for Rings and Key.
  • Sapseep Forest + Deserted Temple + Rings of Brighthearth for infinite life. Should the Rings be inaccessible this could also be accomplished by using Genesis Wave to put into play Temple and Strip Mine every Renaissance loop iteration (though the Conjurer's Bauble will then not be sufficient to keep the loop going as 2 non-artifacts will need to be replayed multiple times (yes, I realize there might be a very convoluted way of doing it where you would flashback the Renaissance so you can get it back with the Sweeper and the Wave with the Witness , but lets keep things simple ;))).
  • Reito Lantern + <card draw> to get any card from my graveyard in hand to be able to play them. Does not work on lands (Storm Cauldron is not worthy of consideration, though it could help getting lands into play and could against some cause a bit of a soft lock).
  • Reito Lantern + Genesis Wave to get all the permanents in my graveyard into play, including lands. Should they be in hand Scroll Rack can put them on top, should lands be in play Khalni Gem can put them in hand. Primeval Titan could also be used to get lands into play, but as they will be tapped at least the Temple will need to enter play by different means.
In addition should it be required Strip Mine helps me get rid of their lands, the Cloud or Oblivion Stone (+ fate counters on my permanents if needed) helps me get rid of almost anything else. The Stone could also in an emergency help loop something of my own that I cannot easily get in my graveyard in another way. Should they have exiled a card I need I can get it back with Riftsweeper. Finally should their graveyard be bothering me I could loop Shred Memory.

Should there be anything left then there is pretty much nothing that can stand against a Smokestack that is getting more and more counters. I could see playing Magistrate's Scepter to not have to pass the turn ever again (though it only works when Voltaic Key is available), but I have not found room for it.

Combo cards:

This may seem like an awfully large amount of cards and you’d be right to think that. However, very few of these cards are strictly in the deck for combo-ing. In fact only the Druid and Mesmeric Orb are in the deck for that reason exclusively, though some of the other cards will not frequently have uses outside of combo they might in some games. In all it does seem like I may have a few too many ways to approach infinity and some cards might be better replaced by cards more useful for getting me there.

Finally there is a single spell left unmentioned. Sculpting Steel can act as almost anything in the deck. It’s not spectacular at anything in particular, but being able to duplicate whatever artifact I need most is a very good ability.

Playing the deck

Honestly, so far this deck is a thought experiment. I have been slowly acquiring the cards I am pretty sure of, but I still have a few to go. I do not want to put it together only to discover that it doesn’t work given the value of some of the cards in it.

Keeping that in mind I did test the deck on MWS and this is what should happen in broad lines:

  • Look at your hand. Is there a Tutor and sufficient mana? -> Keep. Is there a strong enough lock piece or disruption and sufficient mana? -> Keep. Otherwise, consider mulligan.
  • Drop mana acceleration and start working out either your disruption or your combo plan.
  • Eventually find a combo, hopefully keeping the opposition busy enough in the mean time.
  • Combo off.
The biggest difficulty is generally either finding enough mana or enough disruption.

Considerations

To me it feels as if the deck needs just a few more lock pieces for it to be a worthwhile strategy while with so many cards that have combo potential that might be the most likely place to look for cards to cut.

Cards I could see playing but aren’t:

  • Bazaar of Baghdad - If Glissa does her job good enough there is a lot of card advantage to be had with this land.
  • Candelabra of Tawnos - Would duplicate Deserted Temple, act as acceleration when I have a land that taps for 2 or more or color fixing with most other lands. However I would probably need more than the 4 lands I am currently running that tap for more mana. This would soon lead me towards Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins, which seem risky even if I was to put in the next entry as well.
  • Crucible of Worlds/Life From the Loam – Probably too slow and requires some extensive changes to the mana base to take full advantage of them.
  • Elvish Spirit Guide - This should act as a more limited Lotus Petal, probably gaining 1 mana is not enough.
  • Everflowing Chalice - I could see extending my mana acceleration and this is one of the best available, there is even a combo with Voltaic Key and Rings of Brighthearth should I have lost access to Basalt Monolith.
  • Lion's Eye Diamond - When I go off I don’t mind my hand being in my yard as I intend the cards to be there anyway. Pretty useless before I go off though.
  • Magistrate's Scepter - Going for infinite turns feels like overkill. It’s basically yet another win condition and not very synergistic with the deck in general.
  • Mana Web - Seems like this could limit my opponent’s options quite well, but it depends a lot on their game plan. If they intend to play all cards at the same time anyway it does little. Has anybody ever had this in play?
  • Possessed Portal - I am probably not capable of sustaining this unless I have a combo going and at that point it should be overkill. Still, I sort of wish I had the room and ability to play this ultimate lock piece as I can think of few things more terrible to do to an opponent.
  • Silent Arbiter/Meekstone/Forcefield/Ensnaring Bridge - I am not sure how scared I should be of large creature armies. I’m not likely to get killed before I can go off right?
  • Small artifacts that draw cards: I probably want Nihil Spellbomb, Phyrexian Furnace and Scrabbling Claws as part of a draw and disruption package and maybe a few others like them as well. The idea would be that while there may be barely enough lock pieces available I could then improve the chance of drawing the few that are. Unfortunately this kind of card makes mulligan decisions very hard as you have no idea what they are going to get you and they do take up limited deck space.
  • Smallpox - I hate losing my land, but I shouldn’t care much for the rest. The mana cost isn’t very easy, but that probably shouldn’t be enough reason for not playing something that’s pretty good with Glissa and the deck in general. May be a better play than the Myojin, because realistically, when I have 8 mana for the Myojin, wouldn’t I just want to combo?
  • Worn Powerstone - My mana acceleration package could probably be a little bigger. This is one of the best options I am not playing.

I’m sure I’ve missed some pretty obvious cards, so please enlighten me! Looking forward to any feedback or suggestions.

pi

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Last edited by pi on 2016-Apr-08 2:06 am, edited 6 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2011-Dec-31 10:00 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-15 2:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Denver, CO
I don't know how streamlined the deck is, but I would consider the following package:
Contamination
Bitterblossom
Bloodghast
Reassembling Skeleton
Skullclamp

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-01 3:43 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
Thanks for your response.

The problem with that package is that to take advantage of the full potential of that package I would need to play a good number of creatures. I currently have 8 + Glissa (and I am having some doubts on the Myojin). You propose to add 2 and a creature producing enchantment to bring it to a total of 12 creatures or creature producing permanents. That means only 1 in 9 cards in the deck will be able to work with the contamination or skullclamp, most of which don't interact particularly well with them (do I really want to sac a non-recurring creature to contamination?). Many of the creatures would be as strong or stronger if they stuck around and one particular creature actually kills itself (the Marauder), so in practice it's only those 3 "creature" cards you propose to add that work well. I don't really like the chances of drawing a clamp or contamination together with one of these "creature" cards and I certainly wouldn't want to spend Tutors on getting it together when I could just as well go for the combo instead if I have Tutors available to me.

Not that I wouldn't like to be able to have the deck more creature focussed as that would also bring online 3 more excellent Tutors and should I find some way to make that happen this package is certainly going in (also I just love playing lots of creatures). The problem is that these creatures will compete for space with the lock parts of the deck and so they will need to be either better at locking my opponents or provide me with some other highly synergistic interaction with the combo components of the deck. I'm not sure I see a way to make that happen, but perhaps you do?

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-01 9:19 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-13 3:03 pm
Age: Hatchling
Maybe Darksteel Plate and Voyager Staff to protect Glissa?


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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-02 12:52 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
Well, actually Glissa is more of a backup plan. I expect her to die when I am also making the creatures from my opponents die, such as when I play an innocent Blood. On the other hand, the Hermit Druid could use some protection. I feel the plate is too weak as somebody holding removal is just going to use it in response to me wanting to equip, or alternatively they are holding a Swords and don't care (yes, they could have sorcery speed removal, but that's mostly mass removal and I would hope to go off before I ever need to fear that). The Staff on the other hand comes out earlier, has some combo potential (though it's annoying that the creature returns only at end of turn) and protects my creature from almost anything at instant speed. When it comes down to it the Staff can even contribute a little to defense. I could definitely see playing the Staff, good catch!

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-02 4:57 am 
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Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
Kudos for the opening post. I like to read about well-tuned decks, and this one seems solid. I’d love to see it work (especially as it has all sorts of filthy expensive cards), but I wouldn’t love playing against it. I like the combo part, but I despise the lock. Every playgroup has it’s own stance towards combo kills obviously, but locking people out isn’t fun for any table. But you probably know that already :)

All my combo’s revolve around creatures, so I can’t really help you with that. The only card I could suggest is Feldon’s Cane. I suspect you’d enjoy playing the card (because it’s ANCIENT!), it can be a nice escape route against GY hate (like Krosan Reclamation).

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-02 5:19 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
Thanks, I figured I'd put some effort into it, great that you appreciate it :).

I'm not playing those expensive cards just because, but it sure helps that I have access to them :). As you can see in the potentials section, I'm actually considering adding more. Also I mean this deck to be pimp (for me that's first English printing, Beta rather than Alpha, non-foil) and all I really miss for that is a Beta Bayou (though that is a big one).

I think the lock component will in practice be more of a delay component. There's just not enough lock cards available that work well with the deck to go for a full lock. Still, indeed, this deck is not meant to be fun to play against :). One of the reasons I decided to build it was facing off against unfair competitive decks and wanting to be able to take revenge on them. The less they like playing against my deck, the better... (Yeah, I realize that I'm trying to do exactly what I don't want them to do to me, though unlike many competitive players I do have many fair decks and don't intend to play against an unkown opponent with Glissa).

I absolutely love older cards and I do have a nice Antiquities copy lying around somewhere, however I have to wonder what the Cane does better than other cards in the deck that i am playing for the same purpose. The card is most like Reclaim and Noxious Revival. Its big advantage is of course to do a full reset of my library rather than putting a single card on top that may or may not save me from decking. It's also very likely that I die to mass graveyard removal, though I don't care much for some targetted removal as I have so many backup combo's. Finally, should I be gradually milling myself I might get the Cane back through Glissa. The down side of the Cane is obviously that I need to have it in play before doing anything where I could use the other 2 cards at instant speed. Another disadvantage is that it removes itself, which makes recurring it ackward. I'm not sure the card should be included, but I should certainly rate it a little higher than I have so far. Good suggestion!

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-02 8:07 am 
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Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
No, I think the cane is subpar. I stumbled upon it some time ago, and that led to fond memories of the time when I played it in my very first deck because everybody and their mothers were playing Millstone. The upside of Feldon’s Cane is that it can act as a rattlesnake, but I have a feeling that your deck (or your format) is too fast for any rattlesnake. Krosan Reclamation is the only card that’s really worth it, as you can flashback it. The nice thing about Glissa/Hermit is to use the yard as an extension of your hand, and Noxious Revival or Reclaim aren’t completely up to it. But perhaps they are, if I could determine what to cut I might give them a try. Cane is not awesome, but I’m sure it’s something to keep in the back of your head though.

By the way, since you don't actually need a hand, Chains of Mephistopheles is worth running.

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-02 8:56 am 
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The "problem" is that I feel I do need something. I feel a bit too vulnerable to this scenario: mill my library (*big smile on my face* I'm going off, woohoo!), play Reclamation from my graveyard, which they then proceed to counter and I'll just look stupid. Even if they don't counter they could have targetted graveyard removal in response or could be able to make me draw 2+ cards. It feels like a risk to have nothing besides the Reclamation to protect me. Of course my goal is to mill myself turn 3-5 and then proceed to win immediately afterwards. I'm not in it for the long run: I need disruption and quick answers, not something that steadily gets me there. They don't come cheaper than the Revival. Practice with the deck should show whether what I have is too much or too little also consider that on occassion these can act as extra Tutors as long as I have one in my yard. For completeness, currently Reito Lantern, Scroll Rack, Riftsweeper, Necropotence, Volrath's Stronghold and Green Sun's Zenith can also keep me from decking.

I'm not sure the Chains are worth running. It all depends on whether people are drawing many cards and even then you only turn their draws into draw and discard, so likely they will still be able to find their answers at a fast pace. In addition I want to draw cards when going for the Renaissance based loop, which could become ackward quickly if I have to discard a lot to do so due to the Chains (though the Renaissance should be giving me some fodder). My dislike of the card could be unfamiliarity with competitive decks though, perhaps the top tier decks draw a ton of cards and would be hindered very much by a Chains. (It would not surprise me). I need to think about it some more, at least it's another card that works decently with Glissa while likely other players will be hurt by it, but I may need more creature destruction to make it work very well with Glissa. Bazaar of Baghdad and small card drawing artifacts have similar demands that I'm afraid I can't meet.

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-02 1:22 pm 
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Well, as far as protection goes in these colors... Maybe Imp's mischief?

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-05 8:26 am 
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Location: Amsterdam, Holland
You're certainly thinking out of the box, great!

What I'm wondering is whether maybe a larger discard package could work. Unnerve, Necrogen Mists, Cunning Lethemancer, Liliana of the Veil, Mindlash Sliver, Rotting Rats, Stronghold Rats (maybe Bottomless Pit or Oppression). Glissa should be good at helping me get back (some of) what I discard, my acceleration should help me drop (most of) my hand quickly and opponents with no hands would have to rely on topdecks to stop my combo. Of course normally I would stay far away from this kind of card as it paints a nice big bullseye on my head, but well, that's what this deck does anyway. I shouldn't expect to be considered friendly ;).

The Mischief would stop a single spell (do I remember correctly that a counterspell could be redirected to the Mischief?), which is good, but as I have multiple opponents to deal with perhaps not the best I could be doing. With the hand disruption I would obviously be slower and less likely to hit exactly what I want, however, I would likely be slowing down opponents pretty well, which is as good as getting extra turns to combo off. There's also more options so I could possibly turn it into a consistent part of the deck.

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-06 2:38 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
pi wrote:
…but as I have multiple opponents to deal with perhaps not the best I could be doing. With the hand disruption I would obviously be slower and less likely to hit exactly what I want, however, I would likely be slowing down opponents pretty well, which is as good as getting extra turns to combo off. There's also more options so I could possibly turn it into a consistent part of the deck.


Well, there’s two different points you’re trying to make:
1. 1-for-1’s aren’t great in multiplayer
2. Mass discard might be a valid strategy for a Glissa deck

Both statements are true. However, what is the problem you’re trying to solve? Your goal is to combo, your subgoal is to lock to get the time to combo. Your combo’s are creature-based and graveyard-based. Anyway, the problems that have to be solved are something like:
a. targeted removal
b. Graveyard hate
c. Consistency of the combo
d. Consistency of the lock
e. Permission

How does #1 or #2 tie to this? The downside is that creature removal is prevalent in EDH, and so is permission in competitive EDH. Graveyard hate is less prevalent. The thing with discard is timing: it doesn’t matter if your opponent has 7 or 1 cards, if that one card is the card you don’t want him to have. Unless discard is random, you’re not influencing card quality. As you are actively annoying your opponents, they will likely retaliate and optimise their card quality in a way they can hurt you. It may seem as if it buys you time, but at best you’re drawing a counter. I think you could better focus on something that actively works on your goals. I’m also wondering how many turns you expect to play, discard needs a large amount of turns before it gets effective.

The upside is that most what would hurt you are 1-for-1’s as well. Graveyard hate is a pain in the ass, but the upside is that it’s not as prevalent as other threats you are facing. Do you really care about targeted removal? I doubt it, as you can recur at will. Now, as for permission… I don’t know. They’ll out-draw you, so that’s tough. I’d put my money at fighting their mana.

Anyway, I’ve thought of two cards that might help against targeted removal or permission: Guardian Beast and Seedtime.

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-06 9:53 am 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
Very well thought out, I think you're probably right on discard.

About the problems:

a. targeted removal

Fairly annoying, but as this will likely be played before the Druid is active not a big concern, I can always get it back or go for a different combo.

b. Graveyard hate

Very annoying. Mass graveyard removal just kills me, targetted is less strong as there is so much that can combo together, however a good player should still be able to pull my deck apart if he can remove more than 2 cards. I think you are right to assume this is less often played and that it might therefore receive a lower priority.

c. Consistency of the combo

Could be better. I am currently aiming for redundancy, which has its merrits. The down side is that I use more cards than I possibly could. I think I should have both the Druid and the Orb in for combo redundancy (as the Druid is most efficient but as a creature much weaker to removal), but I could possibly do with fewer ways to follow up the combo, say 1 way to gain infinite mana with 1 kill using that mana as if my combo isn't getting stopped I'm likely clear for the follow up as well. That space could be used to protect the combo and increase consistency. Redundancy on the other hand makes sure one piece of permission or removal is not going to stop me, I might even survive a second, but to be honest facing a third setback will probably delay me quite a bit

I'm not sure which is the better choice, consistency or redundancy. Being faster certainly means others have had less chance to draw their answers, but when they do have it I can pretty much roll over. Redundancy certainly fits my playstyle better.

I'm wondering whether there might be a different combo I could go for. For example, is there a Doomsday stack that could "guarantee" my win? If so going for that might require fewer cards.

d. Consistency of the lock

Requires improvement. Fortunately I don't depend on my lock being a hard lock. All I want to accomplish is delaying them when I haven't found a way to quickly line up my combo. I keep wondering whether there might be artifacts I'm overlooking that would sufficiently delay opponents. Sphere of Resistance and friends would certainly be good to play if I find a cheap enough way to combo through them.

e. Permission

My achilles heel. I must resolve Krosan Reclamation or a flashed back Creeping Renaissance. The other problems are minor by comparison. It might be safer to always aim for the Renaissance flashback so the Reclamation remains as backup, but then I need 8 mana in my turn.

Regarding discard, you're probably right to assume that if they have something that will be a problem it will only be discarded when they are forced to, so randomly or as the last card. The discard I suggested is probably too slow for this. Potentialy Mind Twist would deserve a spot and should be aimed at the player most likely able to stop me before comboing off if I have it (I also happen to have a pretty nice beta copy ;)). The fact that what hurts me are likely 1-for-1's means that players will most likely not be wasting them as they probably only have few so they will likely still be holding them even if they don't know what I am up to. You've convinced me, I'll rule out slow discard for now.

Fighting their mana is certainly ideal. On one end I want to be playing a ton of acceleration anyway so don't care as much for my lands and on the other end anything they can't cast is not a threat. Unfortunately there isn't much mass LD in my colors, or am I overlooking something? I don't really see anything beyond the few artifacts I'm playing that mess with their mana, unless you consider Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger a serious option?

I'm not sure I see how I would use Seedtime. If they do have permission and they are smart players they are probably going to save it for whatever I have to follow up the Druid activation. Taking another turn is probably the very last thing I want to do at that point as I'm probably scrambling to survive my draw step and really can't use another one. I do like the Guardian Beast, and not just because it's a cool old card, it protects all the backup combo's (though not the Druid one) as well as my lock pieces. The more artifacts I manage to add the better he gets. I'm not sure I'm currently at a point where he's good enough, but if not he's certainly very close. The main down side to playing him is that he seems to aim more towards a slower deck while I want to be fast.

Again you've given me a lot to think about and consider, thanks! I do want to post and updated list, but I first want to figure out what I feel is the best option to go for. Right now it's all milling through my head and it takes some time to fall in place (I didn't arrive at the list in the first post very quickly either).

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I'm a gabber and I feel alright
I sleep all day and I dance all night
I'm a gabber and I feel OK
I dance all night and I sleep all day


3 Steps Ahead - I'm A Gabber


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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-10 6:25 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
The classic way for black decks or black/green rock decks to win is grinding or suicide. I think the classic hand destruction is too slow in a powered meta, because it's either not random or targets only single players (like the Mind Twist you mentioned). There's some stuff that works occasionally, like Mindslicer or Nath+Hypnotist (could be worth switching your general for), but I think you'd be diluting the deck. Grinding through lockdown or attacking their mana seems like a better plan, and your deck is already tuned for that. You could consider the trio of Pox, Smallpox and Death Cloud (you could push this through permission with Boseiju). These cards do everything you want, and because of Glissa and Loam you should be able to recover. There's no Balance or Armageddon for you, unfortunately.

Which leads to suicide... it's no sui deck, but as you're playing this deck to annoy some competitive tabels (amirite?) you don't need the most consistent deck. With the dependency on graveyard hate you are playing with a glass cannon to begin with, so why not turn it into a real glass cannon? Aim for redundancy instead of resilience and see where you end up.

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 Post subject: Re: [1:N, Glissa] Mistress Glissa…
AgePosted: 2012-Jan-10 2:39 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jun-05 7:30 am
Age: Elder Dragon
If you're interested, I'm working on a combo that might work well. Mine is going to be BGW or BUG, I haven't decided yet, but it is probably doable as just BG. I think my combo is quite resilient so I thought I'd share. It's particularly resilient to GY hate which is why I thought you'd be interested.

In short, I'm trying to do silly things with Doomsday and Mirror of Fate, although more accurately I'm aiming for Doomsday->Moonlight Bargain->Mirror of Fate->Memory Jar->Bosium Strip->Pile of Instants and Sorceries that I can keep recycling with the strip. For you I'd consider

Beast Within - so that you get a steady stream of critters to kill, so that you can keep recurring your mirror and jar with your general.
Regrowth - so that you can regrow important bits
Bubbling Muck - so that you can keep funding yourself, running Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is essential, but I can't see you objecting to that.
Rude Awakening - as with Bubbling Muck. There are obviously other choices for these two like Candelabra of Tawnos and Emerald Charm. Alternatively you could choose both.
3 more cards: possibly some more recursion, like maybe Restock if you don't want to rely on Glissa to return your artifacts, or another creature kill or maybe even a riftsweeper to help you to recur important bits that get exiled.
In your final run through you want Exsanguinate and Tendrils of Corruption

There are any number of ways you can do it instead. e.g.
w/ Chains of Mephistopheles in play activate Memory Jar losing the whole lot.
Cabal Ritual
Ill-Gotten Gains
Relic of Progenitus
Shallow Grave/Stitch Together
Draco
Sacrifice/Burnt Offering
Something Else

The reason I like it here, the three key combo pieces (Jar+Mirror+Strip) are all artifacts so easy to recur with your general if they get countered. Once the bosium strip goes off your opponents are almost certainly dead as the strip means you can cast anything twice. TBH, the Doomsday is optional in your deck and going without it reduces the level of risk. As a substitute, you could use a Rings of Brighthearth so that you can copy the activation of Mirror.

I'll have a look through the rest of the deck when I have more time. Hope you like.

I appreciate this is all very mana intensive, which is why I intend to start with Bubbling Muck. If you take nothing else away from my idea, I think that this card could help you get the mana that you want much earlier. I also intend to use Semblance Anvil as I'm not scared of the imprint with Mirror of Fate as one of the main themes in the deck.

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2C:
Nath (Elves everywhere); Wort, the Raidmother (Goblins everywhere)
Shards:
Big Mac and Pickles (Angus Mackenzie Control inc. Pickles Lock)|Sharuum (Artifact Combo)|Garza Zol (Vampires+Goodstuff); Sedris (I can steal anything); Nicol Bolas (WIP)|Kresh (Jund Good Stuff);Karrthus (Dragon Tokens Everywhere)|Tamanoa (Earthquakes Galore)
Wedges:
Oros (Life gaining Pings)|Riku's Perfect Snowstorm (Variety of Storms+Snow)|Doran the Explorer (Wall Tribal)|Ruhan (Voltron);Zedruu (Enchantments)
5C:
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