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 Post subject: Super Smash Boros (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-24 8:06 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
Commander - (1)
1 Firesong and Sunspeaker

Creatures - (13)
1 Hostility
1 Sacred Guide
1 Mogg Maniac
1 Mentor of the Meek
1 Runehorn Hellkite
1 Seht's Tiger
1 Treasonous Ogre
1 Boros Reckoner
1 Truefire Captain
1 Spitemare
1 Emrakul's Hatcher
1 Boreas Charger
1 Simian Spirit Guide

Instants - (14)
1 Lightning Helix
1 Risk Factor
1 Return to Dust
1 Boros Charm
1 Seething Song
1 Crush Contraband
1 Commune with Lava
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Oblation
1 Chaos Warp
1 Tithe
1 Pyroblast
1 Even the Odds

Sorceries - (14)
1 Star of Extinction
1 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Mana Geyser
1 Righteous Confluence
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Gift of Estates
1 Deafening Clarion
1 Terashi's Grasp
1 Blasphemous Act
1 Solemn Offering
1 Hour of Devastation
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Shreds of Sanity
1 Open the Armory

Artifacts - (11)
1 Sol Ring
1 Boros Signet
1 Boros Cluestone
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Skullclamp
1 Sunforger
1 Avarice Amulet
1 Reito Lantern
1 Soldevi Digger
1 Vessel of Endless Rest
1 Aetherflux Reservoir

Enchantments - (11)
1 Land Tax
1 Mana Echoes
1 Pursuit of Knowledge
1 Experimental Frenzy
1 Worship
1 Outpost Siege
1 Oath of Lieges
1 Sunbird's Invocation
1 Endless Horizons
1 Chaosphere
1 Divine Visitation

Planeswalkers - (4)
1 Jaya Ballard
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger

Lands - (32)
10 Mountain
10 Plains
1 Homeward Path
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Boros Garrison
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Smoldering Crater
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Drifting Meadow
1 Blasted Landscape
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Evolving Wilds

I was going to run Commander combos with Spiritualize, Chant of Vitu-Ghazi, and Samite Ministration in here but unfortunately with the way Firesong and Sunspeaker's abilities are worded it doesn't work that way. It's based on rule 603.7d stating that, "If a spell creates a delayed triggered ability, the source of that delayed triggered ability is that spell. The controller of that delayed triggered ability is the player who controlled that spell as it resolved." I guess it still works however the official Magic Judges haven't said anything about it yet.

Just recently added Worship as a way to help get around Rain of Gore, False Cure, and Tainted Remedy. Seht's Tiger also helps as an extra copy by giving myself protection from black in case a situation like that does occur. Also recently added Emrakul's Hatcher since it synergizes well with Mana Echoes to add extra mana for casting more spells with Firesong and Sunspeaker. I'm not expecting too much Boros support from Guilds of Ravnica since I feel as though this deck can pull it's own weight quite often.

Any help, advice, and/or suggestions are greatly appreciated. ;)

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"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


Last edited by Card Slinger J on 2018-Oct-28 1:18 pm, edited 211 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 2:43 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
That land count looks WAY too small. Most competitive decks which saturate their list with mana rocks usually don't go that low. Usually what I do is start with 40 lands, then drop one for every two mana rocks I run, usually trying to never get below 33. Also minor nitpick but you only have 29 lands listed.


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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 2:36 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
Yeah I think I'm going to cut the number of artifacts down to 15 and add that to my land base. I've been meaning to add in Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle and Emeria, the Sky Ruin as extra utility lands as well.

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"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-29 2:45 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
So, I kinda mulled on this for bit- because I wanted to find a way that phrases this both charitably, and accurately- because the concept is difficult, if I'm being quite frank.

W/X decks want to play Turbo Magic, because at it's core W tends to come out ahead in Turbo situations- Boros is one of the harder 2c combinations to build and pilot- because as a W/X combination, Boros is extremely incentivized to go overboard with the Turbo Magic elements. With this in mind, we have to keep our expectations in check when building Boros or Mono W- because Turbo Magic as a concept is difficult to pilot in an uncanny way- since a major element of it is giving your opponents parallel access to card draw, and also playing cards that have to be positioned as sharing potential downsides for you. This sortof flies in the face of conservative Magic principals- and I'd recommend making members of your playgroup aware of just how little of a disadvantage it is for a deck built around Turbo Magic to give parallel resources. In EDH, especially- if a player has never participated in a format where these sorts of decks not only exist, but absolutely shred combo decks, they could take it as being rude, or insulting.

Principally, this means that you'll likely want to include cards like Howling Mine, Temple Bell, and Otherworld Atlas to create a baseline where you ensure the playgroup's ability- this tends to disrupt strategies that rely wholly on resource disparity to gain an advantage (selective hand disruption, high permission, mana denial etc.) Knowing this, it's best to avoid playing those types of cards inside of this sort of strategy- unless it's a "soft" version like Aura of Silence- or a specific type of "bullet" like Strip Mine. With access to Red mana, we get to push our Turbo even further through Wheel effects. Molten Psyche is a favorite- but Dragon Mage, Wheel of Fortune, and Magus of the Wheel will serve you well. If having wheels attached to bodies is too much, I hear good things about Reforge the Soul

EDIT: I really like Oblation- in this context, it's likely a very large upgrade to Browbeat- since half of the time Oblation eats a token to create an instant White Divination- and the other half- you get to stop someone from winning outright.

In a general sense, I think this particular general wants to combo with Searing Meditation- which I would play over Approach of the Second Sun- cards like Approach (I win) or extra turn cards tend to become a sort of political suicide- and if you play them out without eliminating players, you're going to have a bad time.

For tech, since RW is a color combo with access to 2 colors that have extreme recursion- I would suggest Repeating Barrage, Faith's Reward, and Reveillark as possible starting points. Emeria Shepherd is one of my favorite pet cards, if you're willing to invest the effort into generating setups using loot effects etc. If my experience with Trostani, Selesnya's Voice has taught me anything, it's also a waste to devote too many slots to non-mana doublers- because you'd rather raise the baseline of your effects for powerful plays than play an excess of enablers with huge upsides- but requiring slots that could be utilized by clutch disruption, Mulldrifter/Titans, or modal pieces which dovetail both ends of your strategy.

EDIT: Back to the Doubling comment- I think Gisela, Blade of Goldnight outclasses all 3 of your doubler enchantments- and is unique to this color combo. If I had to pick the loadout- it would only include Gisela and Furnace as doublers- opting instead to pack Repercussion (my favorite red card)- and damage deflecting tools like Shining Shoal

Hope some of this helps, best of luck!

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-29 12:43 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
So I recently stumbled upon a new Worthy Cause combo involving Serra Avatar and Sneak Attack which in conjunction with Firesong and Sunspeaker that's a lot more consistent which should allow me to deal 3 damage to any creature or player indefinitely If I have either Book of Rass or Well of Lost Dreams to draw back into Serra Avatar to help cheat onto the battlefield again with Sneak Attack. I figured it was a lot more reliable than having to use Monastery Mentor or Blaze Commando to get it going.

That being said, it looks as though I need to rethink my approach on this to add more group hug elements to this deck as you suggested. I could see Paradox Engine having quite a bit of synergy with Temple Bell and Otherworld Atlas since this deck likes to cast noncreature spells quite a bit. Aside from Molten Psyche and Fateful Showdown I might lean more toward Winds of Change even though it doesn't gain lifelink from Firesong and Sunspeaker.

As far as recursion goes I've been looking into Past in Flames and Mizzix's Mastery for recasting instants and sorceries with Firesong and Sunspeaker though I am considering taking out Serra Avatar for Reveillark to combo with Karmic Guide using Worthy Cause and Renounce as sac outlets while getting Firesong and Sunspeaker's damage trigger from casting a white instant or sorcery spell.

Only reason why I didn't include Gisela, Blade of Goldnight as a damage doubler was due to potentially messing up on my math in regards to rounding down damage so it was more of a personal choice on my part. Approach of the Second Sun I was already planning on taking out of the deck anyway especially since it costs 6W to cast to be that reliable with Firesong and Sunspeaker. I appreciate the help and feedback, also what do you think about including Helm of the Host in here for stacking Firesong and Sunspeaker's last ability?

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"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


Last edited by Card Slinger J on 2018-Apr-29 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-29 4:17 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
While I certainly get your meaning, try not to think of Turbo Magic as the same as Hug. Hug tends to play Turbo effects to force the game to move along, and kill the feelbad- but Turbo decks use parallel advantage cards in combination with digging resources to smooth out their draws. Since I don't really have a good read on your meta, the best advice I can give to understand this is to point out that it's a reference to Street Fighter II: Turbo, a variant of the classic fighter, wherein the animation values are changed to make the game flow faster (emphasizing more clutch blocks, better "hit confirmation" through lights etc.) You're pushing the game forward by creating the parallel effect, and your deck wants to be built to thrive best in that environment (ex: it's generally better to never miss a land-drop outside of outright cEDH, than it is to have explosive mana- as your deck seems well primed to do, if it can overcome the issue of simply drawing deep enough into your cardpool) The idea, is that your opponents are forced to make more plays, sooner- and you have cheaper and better tools to disarm them when absolutely necessary- or to pull ahead under those conditions. Giving them resources isn't a disadvantage if it gives you a greater number of options to work around- something RW is particularly good at.

As for Helm of the Host- I can't really say. Helm is a very cool card, and you have Godo to support it; but I feel like it's easy to overvalue. If I could offer more suggestions, they would be Grim Lavamancer, Survival Cache, Timely Reinforcements, and Wingmate Roc. Roc might not fit if your meta is oppressively fast (the lack of hard creature wipes suggests that it might be- sticking a Raided Roc can be gameshattering in those groups- but tapping 5 mana at a table with a deck that goes off as suddenly as Chain Veil Teferi could be pretty feelbad.)

EDIT: Last note, is about your manabase. I don't think the Karoos help here- since you aren't trying to play off a landfall trick with Terrain Generator, Walking Atlas etc. I think for utility lands, you'll probably just want to stick to Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, Thawing Glaciers, and the cycling lands available in your colorscheme (these go really well with Turbo)- while it's a little awkward, fast mana is almost always just better than an excess of lands that do things- and with a 2c manabase, you really get to leverage your easy fixing (opening up Blood Moon if it becomes necessary.) Generally, you only want utility lands that your deck can completely utilize (so, if you really feel that Boseiju is the right speed as well, it's a fine addition.) Consider Strip Mine, Tectonic Edge, Ghost Quarter, Field of Ruin and/or Dust Bowl. 2c lets you play these bullets en passant- and you aren't obligated (or even advised) to necessarily use them aggressively. They fix potential issues- but are often less good for nuking Krosan Verge and friends unless you feel absolutely threatened by Landfall effects- and more good for breaking a problem Maze of Ith or some flavor of power-land.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-29 5:44 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
Timely Reinforcements is interesting though I don't know how I really feel about it. Survival Cache I can see being useful with Firesong and Sunspeaker due to Rebound. Grim Lavamancer does have synergy with Paradox Engine though. I went ahead and swapped Braid of Fire for Mana Flare to help ramp into Firesong and Sunspeaker on turn 4 If I cast Mana Flare on turn 3.

Myriad Landscape was another ramp card I considered alongside Thawing Glaciers that could be helpful so I could potentially take Emeria, the Sky Ruin out for it unless If you'd think I'd be better off with Terrain Generator. As much as I'd like to open up into Blood Moon it would effectively shut down Thawing Glaciers since it loses all abilities from becoming a Mountain when entering the battlefield.

As for my Planeswalker package I do feel as though Elspeth, Knight-Errant seems out of place in here. Daretti, Scrap Savant is solid for getting back specific artifacts I need while Ajani Vengeant is on flavor. I'm still on the fence with Nahiri, the Harbinger though. I did consider Jaya Ballard and one of the Chandra Planeswalkers at one point though.

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"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-01 6:41 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Something that strikes me the more I look at the deck- why are you trying to even out the number of occurences per cardtype? Your general values Instants and Sorceries highly- and your deck certainly has the power to support that or create redundancies to just make your draw more reliable.

For example, I noticed Assemble the Legion disappeared- but I had it in mind with the Timely Reinforcements suggestion- since Tokens themselves are an avenue of resource for cards like Burn at the Stake, Battle Hymn, Chant of the Vitu-Ghazi, Blasphemous Act. and Stoke the Flames,

I think Nahiri is very clutch for building cardflow and giving you a versatile way to Disenchant. Elspeth plays into tokens as a resource, but if you aren't looking to be so threatening and play into your resources, Elspeth Tirel or Elspeth, Sun's Champion might be the better fit. If you're all about Daretti shenanigans, a fun angle for this sort of deck would be to use Feldon of the Third Path, and Goblin Welder with a more instant/sorcery synergy focus in the creatures and artifacts you recur. While it's difficult to evaluate perfectly, I think that Firesong and Sunspeaker really like Pyromancer's Goggles and Primal Amulet among other things, because the deck has a natural push towards filling the "Doomsday Spell" archetype. I hope that observation isn't over-reaching, but I think often in Commander, simplification is key to making decks fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-01 6:18 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
I figured If I try to even out the number of occurrences per card type that it would help increase the decks' consistency by running play sets of cards with similar or nearly identical abilities restricted toward my General's color identity. As an end result I took the value of instants and sorcery spells that my General provides for granted to the point where I didn't realize just how powerful it was. Now that I've come to realize this I've tried to find as many other instants and sorcery spells that allow me to help trigger my General's abilities since most of the creatures I had in the deck previously seemed to be holding me back from it.

Sunforger is too much of a staple card in Boros EDH decks to take out completely and since I cut all the creatures minus my General down to add in more instants and sorcery spells I was forced to add in tutors with Steelshaper's Gift, Open the Armory, and Enlightened Tutor to help retrieve it as soon as possible. I also went ahead and added in Magebane Armor in the happenstance that my General gets caught in the crossfire of my noncombat damage abilities. As for creature token producers I threw back in Assemble the Legion while adding Timely Reinforcements.

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"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-07 2:55 am 
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Joined: 2015-Mar-24 8:21 pm
Age: Drake
I can't wait to play test my version of this deck. Bolting 3 targets for 3 and gaining 6 life with Lightning Helix is gonna be so fun.

For your deck, have you considered Reaping the Rewards? Nice finisher, especially if you can bring back land with Second Sunrise or Faith's Reward


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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-07 1:19 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
I just recently placed Reaping the Rewards back in while also using Planar Birth as a way to get back the lands I end up sacrificing which rounds out nicely with Amulet of Vigor to untap them. That being said this deck needs a way to deal with Erebos, God of the Dead, False Cure, and Tainted Remedy since they punish Firesong and Sunspeaker from gaining life in order to come out ahead.

Mirror Universe abilities can also be a problem to deal with If an opponent manages to activate Soul Conduit on the stack before it's destroyed since it isn't restricted towards upkeep like Magus of the Mirror and Axis of Mortality. Reverse the Sands could also be a problem yet at the same time we can use it to our advantage since it shares a color identity with our Commander.

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"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-08 4:08 am 
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Joined: 2015-Mar-24 8:21 pm
Age: Drake
I'd say more artifact/enchantment hate, handful of exile effect ones for Erebos and/or Chaos Warp.

Nahiri is a good start, here's a few more to choose from/pick through (though sadly no lifegain on these):
Act of Authority
Angelic Purge (can hit creatures but has sac requirement, which shouldn't be a problem for your deck)
Forsake the Worldly (cycling)
Return to Dust (a classic)
Revoke Existence (2 mana)
Fate Forgotten (instant)

Cleansing Meditation (good wipe while keeping yours safeish)
Paraselene (has some lifegain on the wipe effect but you run a bit of enchantments yourself so it's uses would be narrow)



Just noticed you have Terashi's Grasp listed under sorceries. Solemn Offering goes well with it. I'd recommend running those two for sure over Divine and Serene Offerings. You lose instant speed and they cost one more but they can both hit enchant or artifact.


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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-08 6:47 am 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
As much as I like Reaping the Rewards' Buyback for Firesong and Sunspeaker's second ability to trigger, I feel as though Sun's Bounty is just as good for Recover as long as you have the extra mana to spend for it. Plus I won't have to heavily rely on Planar Birth to get my lands back as much as long as I can tutor up Worthy Cause with Sunforger.

The idea is to sacrifice a creature with Worthy Cause to gain life with Firesong and Sunspeaker dealing 3 damage to target creature or player (6 damage If Furnace of Rath or Dictate of the Twin Gods are on the battlefield) which triggers Recover from Sun's Bounty since the ability still works with creature tokens being put into your graveyard before being exiled as a state-based action.

You cast Sun's Bounty to gain 4 life while dealing 3 damage to target creature or player with Firesong and Sunspeaker then recast Worthy Cause by sacrificing a creature triggering Sun's Bounty's Recover which would then cause Firesong and Sunspeaker to deal damage again. If you double the damage you're dealing 12 for each.

As for your suggestions earlier I'm definitely leaning toward Chaos Warp and Oblation for dealing with Erebos, God of the Dead and Tainted Remedy. Maybe take out Terashi's Grasp and Wild Ricochet out for them? I already run Divine Offering and Serene Offering which basically serves a similar purpose.

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"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-08 6:34 pm 
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Joined: 2015-Mar-24 8:21 pm
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Card Slinger J wrote:
As much as I like Reaping the Rewards' Buyback for Firesong and Sunspeaker's second ability to trigger, I feel as though Sun's Bounty is just as good for Recover as long as you have the extra mana to spend for it. Plus I won't have to heavily rely on Planar Birth to get my lands back as much as long as I can tutor up Worthy Cause with Sunforger.

The idea is to sacrifice a creature with Worthy Cause to gain life with Firesong and Sunspeaker dealing 3 damage to target creature or player (6 damage If Furnace of Rath or Dictate of the Twin Gods are on the battlefield) which triggers Recover from Sun's Bounty since the ability still works with creature tokens being put into your graveyard before being exiled as a state-based action.

You cast Sun's Bounty to gain 4 life while dealing 3 damage to target creature or player with Firesong and Sunspeaker then recast Worthy Cause by sacrificing a creature triggering Sun's Bounty's Recover which would then cause Firesong and Sunspeaker to deal damage again. If you double the damage you're dealing 12 for each.

As for your suggestions earlier I'm definitely leaning toward Chaos Warp and Oblation for dealing with Erebos, God of the Dead and Tainted Remedy. Maybe take out Terashi's Grasp and Wild Ricochet out for them? I already run Divine Offering and Serene Offering which basically serves a similar purpose.

Reaping is more of a finisher rather than a consistent burn/heal each turn. If you have 8ish lands, very likely you can cast Reaping 4-5 times, each bolting. Just four times is 12, 24 with a doubling damage source. And all that for just 4 mana.

Your combos, while less self destructive, are much more mana intensive. Let's say it's late game and you have 10 lands (3 mountains, 3 plains, 4 r/w) and with that using just your commander and Reaping, you can bolt 7 times for 21 damage/healing. With that same set up, you can only bolt 4 times and that's only if Sun's Bounty is in hand, not GY, and if you have creatures to sac. Still, after all that, Sun's bounty will be left in GY cause you won't have enough mana to recover till next turn.

Sun's Bounty is effectively 2WW to cast, so you're paying 4WWW (7) to bolt twice (6) and gain 4+* vs paying that same 7 to bolt 7 times (21) and gain 21 life

Having land recursion just means you can burn some extra earlier on if desired.

Divine Offering and Serene Offering I just dislike because they only hit one or the other, so a lot of times can be a dead draw. Still good, especially with lifegain though. I forgot about Oblation lol, great card. I think just play test and keep a couple cards in mind that you might wanna cut. Anytime you see them, make a note if you wished they were something else.


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 Post subject: Re: Make Boros Great Again (Firesong and Sunspeaker)
AgePosted: 2018-May-17 2:56 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jul-06 3:44 pm
Age: Drake
I did consider taking out the equipment package with Sunforger, Swiftfoot Boots, and Darksteel Plate for a mill package containing Mindcrank, Crumbling Sanctuary, and Altar of Dementia. It might be too risky since the card tutoring with Sunforger is too good not to run not to mention Swiftfoot Boots and Darksteel Plate for protecting my General.

Might swap Searing Meditation for Outpost Siege naming Khans for the card advantage. I might need to run Jester's Cap as a way to get around False Cure with a little help from Daretti, Scrap Savant since most of the Counterspells that I'd have access to are only good against Blue where as Lapse of Certainty and Rebuff the Wicked/Dawn Charm don't seem to do me any good.

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"Stax is the hero we need but don't deserve. Too many people just play dumb stuff and often games devolve into "who does their dumb stuff first". People essentially just goldfishing. Great social format you got here Sheldon." - illakunsaa


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