Hello all,

I've had this deck for a few years now. I don't play it often, I take it out when I'm facing people I don't know. Usually this means I get my ass handed to me because the deck is underpowered, but for a first impression I think it's better not to bring out the big guns immediately The deck can be a lot of fun to play, because it has some cards you don't see very often. It was my intention to make a deck that scales well: I'll play your cards, not mine. So if your cards are good, I'm having a good time. If you don't have an answer, I'm screwed.

The Core
Ramses Overdark
Dragon Shadow
Dragon Wings
False Demise
Fool's Demise
Unhallowed Pact
Shade's Form

I went with Ramses because I wanted a Legends OG. This card has an interesting design, but a 4/3 for 6 CMC with a situational ability won't win you any battles. The aura's are pretty good though, you could even put these on your own creatures.

As Ramses is an assassin, and Royal Assassin has been one of my favorite cards since I started (somewhere before Ice Age was released), I thought these cards should go in the same deck.

Assassins
Suq'Ata Assassin
Big Game Hunter
Royal Assassin
Dark Impostor
Wei Assassins
Nekrataal
Agent of the Fates

Shriekmaw came out for Agent of the Fates. I had to rework the deck to make that card work, but with Willbreaker around I wanted more stuff that targets anyway. As a general rule I take out non-theme cards when I want to add theme cards. Avatar of Woe and Visara the Dreadful went out some time ago. No, I don't think that makes the deck better either...

Assassins need tools. I could pretend I was looking for thematic equipment, but that'd be a lie. To some extent... I did add Cloak and Dagger and Whispersilk Cloak (which has a version mentioning assassins), but I need shroud/hexproof to keep my stolen creatures (somewhat) safe. I found Glistening Oil to be thematic, as there's some thematic overlap with assassins and poison. It's also good with Ramses, but I found it's not so good on my own weenies.

Tools of the Trade
Lightning Greaves
Cloak and Dagger
Thousand-year elixir
Whispersilk Cloak
Thornbite Staff
No Mercy

The deck has more cards that didn't really have a place, but I turned this into a theme.

Favorites
Nevinyrral's Disk
Sword of Fire and Ice
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Damnation

Cool utility
Sol Ring
Solemn Simulacrum
Oblivion Stone
Skull of Orm
Crystal Chimes
Doomwake Giant - need to keep the tokens off my back

Theft is the main strategy of the deck.

Steal
Talent of the Telepath - trying this because it's new
Vedalken Shackles
Dominating Licid
Silent-Blade Oni - ninjas are basically assassins
Willbreaker
Domineering Will - the best reason to play blue... plus it untaps my assassins

Rite and Stolen Identity got added for Willbreaker, and coincidentally they trigger Agent of the Fates as well. The Metamorph is a prerelease promo, so I have to play it.

Copy/Paste
Rite of Replication
Phyrexian Metamorph
Stolen Identity

From cards like Fool's Demise you'll end up with River Kelpie pretty soon. This engine is what I love about the deck. The other card draw just happens to be cards I like for nostalgic reasons. Sygg could be the general if I wanted to switch. That, or Lazav.

Draw
Sygg, River Cutthroat
River Kelpie
Fact or Fiction
Deep Analysis

Morphs are fun. With Royal Assassin you're hanging back anyway, so something random on the table makes me less of a target. If I'm no threat, and nothing will good from attacking me, then at least I won't be dead soon. I had more morphs in the past.

Morphs
Vesuvan Shapeshifter
Chromeshell Crab
Willbender
Kheru Spellsnatcher

Grave robbers
Ink-Eyes, servant of Oni
Geth, Lord of the Vault
Memory Plunder
Puppeteer clique
Altar of Dementia
Consuming Aberration

Reduce Reuse Recycle
Kokusho, the evening star - it didn't have a home, and it's good with False Demise
Mimic Vat
Cauldron of Souls - added this with Willbreaker, heh
Necromancy
Beacon of Unrest

Mana
Burnished Hart
Mind Stone
Wayfarer's Bauble
Expedition map - first card is always Academy Ruins...
8 Island
7 Swamp
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Maze of Ith
Command Tower
Creeping Tar Pit
Dimir Aqueduct
Dreadship Reef
Drowned Catacomb
Lonely Sandbar
Polluted Delta
Salt Marsh
Secluded Glen
Sunken Ruins
Tainted Isle
Temple of the False God
Underground River
Underground Sea
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Volrath's Stronghold
Academy ruins
Tolaria west
Terramorphic Expanse
Jwahr island refuge
Rogue's Passage

There's never enough space in a deck for all the cards I want to play. I'm contemplating Staff of Domination: it's an Icy Manipulator, it untaps my Royal and it triggers Willbreaker. Stronghold Assassin is high on the list. I'm looking for a promo Overtaker. Sepulchral Primordial and Diluvian Primordial make sense in the deck, but I try to keep the curve low. Random cards I like: Havengul Lich, Hedonist Trove (as I'm light on graveyard hate as well...), Infernal Offering, Oona, Queen of the Fae, Lazav, Dimir Mastermind, Necropotence

I want to update this deck, but I don't know which direction to take it. There are three things prompting me to make it better:

1. It still sucks. That's kind of okay, but since people tend to play better decks nowadays maybe it should get better. I thought about a shapeshifter subtheme to make the deck scale better, but that leads me on the path to Lazav as general. I don't want to ditch Ramses.
2. I read about a nifty rogue tribal deck with Sygg, and that seemed pretty slick. The message of the article was something like "pick a theme, figure out what the deck wants". That deck wanted to attack, and rogues can do that (because you can't block them). The thing is, assassins don't want to attack. One thing I learned is that a lot of rogues are human. Who would've thought?
3. Kindred Discovery

So I figured out that besides assassin tribal, I could just as well go with human tribal. I think that's funny, because it seems opposed to the idea of tribal. U/B doesn't have human tribal synergy, so there's that. But as long as I can claim it's a tribal deck I'm okay with it being nothing more than a goodstuff deck. I can't figure out what'd be a U/B human goodstuff deck though, mainly because I have no idea "what the deck wants". What I want is to draw cards, that's why I ended up with Kindred Discovery.

From there I thought about Equilibrium, Cloudstone Curio, Panharmonicon. But how do I get from there, to triggering the attackers clause, and to dealing enough damage to win? I don't know.

So I'm open to suggestions. Plus random mentions of U/B humans worth running. To finish: is Rishadan Brigand/Cutpurse/Footpad any good? I played during MM block, and all I remember is that they sucked.

So what do you need help with: Your assassin deck, your UB Human rogues deck or the pirate stax build you've got going on at the bottom?

No Kiku, Night's Flower in the assassin's build?
The deck looks nicely placed: underused tribe with a couple of fun interactions that won't scare anyone. Do you really want to win with this? I'd keep the Assassin theme and put some more dimir guild-specific cards in there to beef it up a little. Wear a cloak at the table and keep talking about "contracts" instead of your turn. If you don't get arrested, it could be fun.


For your human rogue deck, do you want only human rogues, only rogues or only humans? There's alot of humans or rogues you could make a deck out of if you stayed in UB but human & rogue is a pretty uninspiring list. What do you want your deck to do?


The MM pirates are ok. You have to work to get them to make opponents sacrifice anything. It's easier now with Panharmonicon but you're always waiting for the right moment to play a 1/1, 2/2 or a 3/3 that can only block fliers. They are really good when you are adding taxing effects and annoying cards like Static/Winter Orb or some sort of combo like Earthcraft + Animar + Cloudstone Curio + another dork. If you're going that way, it could be more interesting than just playing lots of Eldrazi but it's still stax or combo.

If it's really just Equilibrium, Cloudstone Curio, Panharmonicon with no additional enablers and you're paying full price all the time, sure, that could be ok. But, in the end, even if you do manage to tax someone a permanent, they get to choose and it's never the one you want. That's a lot of set-up for not a huge amount of payback and a lot of annoyed opponents.

I don't want to make a human rogue deck, I figured I could make a human deck by adding some useful rogues/wizards/other bipedals to the human assassins already in the deck. For instance, I would have an excuse to run Wharf Infiltrator, enabling Big Game Hunter in the process.



I have it in there in the current list.



I need to put my mind at ease knowing that there's a way to win. My decks have to look good on paper, otherwise I start pondering about it.



I'm not sure, but I have some thoughts. The initial goal of the assassin deck was to hide behind Royal Assassin and deter attacks. That works to some extent, but it doesn't scale well in the endgame. Or better: the game doesn't have an endgame. The main issue I have with the deck is that it's pillow fort on the one hand, but on the other hand tries to sneak in creatures to enable the ninja's. To make it worse, the creatures that want to attack are saboteurs (like Shadowmage Infiltrator (human!), Nightveil Specter) that you don't want to bounce/ninja at all. This combination of minor goals doesn't make sense. I could streamline the deck by cutting the ninja's or the saboteurs, but I like those cards.

About Equilibrium etc: I don't want a stax build. I don't really want to play premium for my creatures either, but if I look at blue cards I like I come up with Equilibrium. I never play blue decks, the only blue I've ever had in any of my decks was in UG madness or UB reanimator. If Equilibrium is perceived as a stax card, I have to look elsewhere. But I thought chaining/bouncing cheap humans would be a way to draw cards.

One road I thought about is to go with poison: I've already had Suq'Ata Assassin and Glistening Oil in the deck, Grafted Exoskeleton on an evasive tiny human can take someone out quickly. It would fit the assassin theme, but it would make me a target. And that's not so smart with an underpowered deck.

So I don't know what the answer is to the question "What do you want your deck to do?" I think the answer is similar to the answer "how do you win with Royal Assassin on the table?". I knew the answer to that one 20 years ago, but it's not exactly the same game anymore. The answer could be "Grave Betrayal and Animate Dead".

Sorry, checked again, no Kiku. Copy/Paste issue?

Right, gotcha. For anything that taps to assassinate, 1000 Year Elixir, Puppet Strings, Bone Crank? It's low-level board control but allows you to do your theme stuff.

I like your Wharf Infiltrator suggestion. I see no issue with adding cards to set up your theme. Is it worth it for so few cards or are there other madness effects that you can add?

Instead of thinking "big end game", what about more grinder-esque cards that give slow advantage like Circu, Lifeline, (the Kamigawa legend that brings back 1/1s?). You could position yourself as the counter/control player until the game reaches a point where you can use a human to give everyone horsemanship or similiar game ending effect?

On the infect/poison theme, Blighted Agent is a human.... Not a huge fan of Grafted Exoskeleton though. Are there any relevant -1/-1 or +1/+1 effects that proliferate could be an option? Liliana is a human (Is Tezzeret a vedalken or human? He's probably not relevant enough either way.) She's not very assassin-y, but she is very take-advantage-of-things-your-assassins-kill though.


I'm just spitballing here, I've never built a UB humans deck. There are about 600 excluding artifact support so there's probably some gems in there.

Ah. No, it's in the current list, but the list in the OP is over two years old. I think there are about 10 different cards in it compared to this list. Less morphs, more primordials. Plus Skeleton Key, and I'm smug about that find.



You mean Icy, right? I'm running something along this line (Staff od Domination), and Dismiss into Dream. It costs a ton of mana, but it makes sure stuff dies. Considering untapping: I even considered Paradox Engine.



Maybe not madness, but reanimator. Or just delve them into Treasure Cruise. Tortured Existence is a nice card to build around (and torture is assassins).



Funny you mention this. I read an article yesterday that mentioned Sun Quan, Lord of Wu. There are more human horsemen. Xiahou Dun, Vela or Keeper of Keys. That plus Nighthowler (=aura) surely can finish a game? I like that.



I appreciate it. I need the help, not much of an U/B player.

In your current list, do you have Heartseeker? Sort of makes every creature an assassin if they aren't already. Anyway...

I'm still looking at what's been said, but I couldn't help noting the Rishadan cards skyrocketed in price recently. Something about a Channel Fireball writer or something making a troll deck, and people believing it is somehow Legacy valid.

No Heartseeker, good flavor suggestion.

So I have been inspired to build a similar deck, once I get a few games in I will report back!

Okay, it’s not as if I forgot about this thread. On the contrary, I’ve been thinking about it a lot. I identified the tribal aspects I could push (mainly card draw, some creature pump) and what themes I could put in the deck. I got to this list:

Ramses Overdark

Aura of greatness
Dragon Shadow
Dragon Wings
False Demise
Fool's Demise
Unhallowed Pact
Shade's Form

Assassins
Agent of the Fates
Big Game Hunter
Royal Assassin
Kiku, Night's Flower
Silent asssassin
Stalking Assassin
Thorn of the Black Rose
Abyssal Hunter
Notorious Assassin

Assassin wannabes
Evil Twin
Avatar of Woe
King Macar-the gold cursed
Shriekmaw

Thieves
Hostage taker
Master thief
Willbreaker

Ninja's and infiltrators
Keeper of Keys
Ink-Eyes, servant of Oni
Silent-Blade Oni
Sakashima's Student
Wharf Infiltrator
Shadowmage infiltrator
Marchesa's infiltrator
Sun Quan, lord of Wu

Draw
River Kelpie
Trophy Mage
Notion Thief

More draw
Kindred discovery
Mind's Dilation
Sword of Fire and Ice
Skeleton Key
Vanquisher's Banner
Herald's Horn

Enablers
Opposition
Cauldron of Souls
Staff of Domination
Thornbite Staff
Domineering Will

Control
Darkness
Sudden Spoiling
Marchesa's Decree
Dismiss into Dream
Attrition
No Mercy
Vedalken Shackles

Cloaks and daggers
Cloak and Dagger
Door of Destinies
Blade of Selves
Lightning Greaves
Swiftfoot boots
Whispersilk Cloak
Thousand-year elixir

Recursion
Mimic Vat
Phyrexian Reclamation
Tortured Existence
Animate Dead
Necromancy
Crystal Chimes
Skull of Orm

Ramp
Solemn Simulacrum
Burnished Hart
Sol Ring
Coalition Relic
Thaumatic Compass
Expedition map
Sword of the Animist

40 lands

It looks like this might work, although it is light on finishers. It has a reasonable tribal theme with some support cards that draw me cards, and Door of Destinies that’d let me close games with my unblockable creatures. Unfortunately, this list has some issues.

Lets start with the big one: this list is 112 cards, yet still only 289creatures (and leaving out favorites like Rite of Replication...). Even if I managed to cut 12 of the noncreature spells, I doubt that is enough to support the tribal mechanic of a card like Herald’s Horn. While Kindred discovery is stronger than that, I doubt it’ll draw me more cards than a card like Phyrexian Arena or Rhystic Study. While I’ll agree that a tribal deck doesn’t mean that that deck needs tribal synergy, to me the appeal of Kindred discovery was that it would make my weak deck stronger. Now, it won’t make it weaker I guess, but jamming Kindred discovery into this deck won’t make it good.

Something similar can be said about Door of Destinies. If I can give all my creatures +3/+3 that’d be great (insert office space meme), but I have no way to get there reliably (yeah, in the slowest meta around). Another thing that dawned on me is that even if I got to three counters on Door of Destinies, this still wouldn’t be a deck that wants to attack: half of the creatures want to hang back and stay alive.

So I’m going back to the drawing board. This thought excercise wasn’t wasted though. I think I’ll explore a list with something like Paradox Engine, Rings of Brighthearth, Strionic Resonator. Getting multiple uses out of Avatar of Woe and still attacking wit hit seems like a fair use of that card Getting the most out of Hostage Taker is near the top of my list, that's about the only thing I'm sure of I'm going to keep from this list (and Strionic Resonator works there). Perhaps the assassin theme works with Revel in Riches and Black Market.Thematically it fits.

The building blocks I want to include:
- Assassins (and this time I'll count any 187 creature as one)
- Ninja finishers (and maybe some primordials)
- Willbreaker and Agent of the Fates: good synergy with aura's, but there's more that work here. Something like Mind Games has good synergy with Royal Assassin as well. Undying Evil seems like a fun party trick.
- Enchantments (on the fence about Rootwater Matriarch
- Assassin tools, like cloaks and daggers (and resonators) because it's a theme deck
- Perhaps some pillow fort cards: I liked the monarch block I came up with, so if I can keep Marchesa's Decree I will. She's the assassin queen anyway.

I'll come up with a list, but from here on I doubt it'll be much different than the one I have. This mental excercise did point out I should run more ramp and/or draw. That's the part I could need help with.

This is the list that I have been playing. It is fun but not too overpowering. It is not a tribal deck, but it does stick to the sneaky, controlling feel that I think Assassins would have. I did a tribal deck at first and it was embarrassing how bad I got beat. I am totally okay with only winning 1/x games, but if I go 2-3 play sessions without a win that really sucks. This deck is far from complete, but it does pretty well, most people leave me alone to my own devices and I can often get rewards for killing creatures attacking others. Not always but that is how I like to play it. ("Hey, want that Aurelia, the Warleader gone? It will cost you...")

That is a pretty low creature count. I'm not sure what the number of creatures is that I'm aiming at, but I think around 25. I'd rather have Vedalken Shackles than Nirkana Assassin as my 26th creature... Looking at Power Matrix, I guess you'll enjoy Phyrexian Splicer.

EDIT: holy crap, Phyrexian Splicer and Willbreaker *brain explodes*

List time!

Ramses Overdark

Aura of greatness
Dragon Shadow
Dragon Wings
False Demise
Fool's Demise
Unhallowed Pact
Shade's Form

Assassins
Agent of the Fates
Big Game Hunter
Royal Assassin
Kiku, Night's Flower
Silent assassin
Stalking Assassin
Notorious Assassin
Dark Impostor

Assassin wannabes
Evil Twin
Avatar of Woe
Shriekmaw

Thieves
Hostage taker
Willbreaker

Ninja's and infiltrators
Ink-Eyes, servant of Oni
Silent-Blade Oni
Sakashima's Student
Shadowmage infiltrator

Draw
River Kelpie
Notion Thief
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Nightveil Specter

More draw
Sword of Fire and Ice
Skeleton Key
Phyrexian Arena


Enablers
Cauldron of Souls
Domineering Will
Rings of Brightheart
Strionic Resonator
Tawnos' Coffin

Control
Darkness
Sudden Spoiling
Dismiss into Dream
Attrition
No Mercy
Vedalken Shackles


Cloaks and daggers
Cloak and Dagger
Lightning Greaves
Whispersilk Cloak
Thousand-year elixir

Recursion
Mimic Vat
Phyrexian Reclamation
Animate Dead
Necromancy
Crystal Chimes
Skull of Orm


Copy/paste
Rite of Replication


Ramp
Solemn Simulacrum
Burnished Hart
Sol Ring
Coalition Relic
Thaumatic Compass
Expedition map
Sword of the Animist
Revel in Riches
Black Market

Secret lairs (39x)
Island 10x
Swamp 7x
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Command Tower
Dimir Aqueduct
Drowned Catacomb
Polluted Delta
River of Tears
Secluded Glen
Sunken Hollow
Choked Estuary
Tainted Isle
Underground River
Underground Sea
Watery Grave
Volrath's Stronghold
Academy ruins
Tolaria west
Rogue's Passage
Shizo, Death's Storehouse
Minamo, School at Water's Edge
Creeping Tar Pit
Thawing Glaciers
Maze of Ith

I managed to make it 100 cards this time. It looks pretty thematic: assassins, ninja's and thieves, and their tools (swords, cloaks, maps and compasses). Dedicated to enchantments and targeted creature removal, and well, weak to everything else. Some cards to tap for Royal Assassin and Willbreaker. Some aura's for Ramses, Willbreaker and Heroic. I like how Black Market and Revel in Riches represent what assassins are about: turning dead bodies into value (tm).

I'm not completely satisfied with the list, as there are some cards left out that I'd like to include, especially the two creatures to bring the creature count up to 25:

Master thief - to push the thievery theme
Mind's Dilation - Grixmas gift and cool draw
Phyrexian Slicer - see my previous post
Thada Adel, Acquisitor - this is a thief, right?
Damnation - a personal favorite, although there's something to be said about a list without sweepers and strictly targeted removal.

The Monarch cards would've been nice to fit in, but meh. I've some cards I'm considering:

Sword of Light and Shadow - I could run this over Phyrexian Reclamation since it's a sword, and does something comparable. I chose to go with raw power, and it's a lot less situational. Could've been Oversold Cemetery for a stronger theme.
Stolen Identity - nice card, fits thematically and mechanically
Smuggler's Copter - looks like a good way to turn useless assassins into value. Plus I'd have a reason to get one altered to Slave I.

Any thoughts on this list? Good mana, good draw? What would you cut to make room for the cards I want to include? Is there some U/B goodstuff I'm crazy not to include (please note that I'll send Ramses after you if you mention Cyclonic Rift).

Edit: added the land section

Kiku deck on Gatheringmagic today:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/markwischkaemper-11292017-convertible-commander-kiku-nights-flower/

There may be things you can port over.

This is interesting. I've been mulling over a Tetsuo Umezawa assassin deck. I really want to control the board and then win with Throne of the God-Pharaoh

I don't have time to really dig into this thread but I will soon.